[brady]

... I do understand the benefits of rev matched downshifts, but I think it's much more relevant to [my emphasis]spirited riding/driving[/my emphasis] as opposed to normal driving.

I agree, plus it's a lot of fun once you get the hang of it.

For someone who is well practiced it may also mean smoother and quicker deceleration in an emergency situation when you need to be turning as well - maybe not a huge improvement, but enough to avoid contact or going down in a specific set of circumstances. Many things that can work well on the track (trail braking, for example?) seem irrelevant on the street until you consider an emergency situatuon when having that extra ingrained skill could save your butt.

 

[Zak650]

I went to Kieth Code's Superbike racing school over 20 years ago and one of the most useful things I got out of it was this: Use the engine to go and the brakes to stop. Using the engine to slow down to any great degree isn't going to work, it's a waste of concentration. Slow down with the engine as you aproach the corner, brake and corner, as you reach the point of re-acceleration tap down the appropriate number of times for your exit speed, let out the clutch, accelerate out of the turn. All this coordinating of shifting and gas just detracts from your ability to go around the corner.

 

[gahdzila]

Using the engine to slow down to any great degree isn't going to work, it's a waste of concentration.

:-\ This just sounds like a load of malarky to me (considering the bike we are talking about). The SV650 has LOADS of engine braking...it DOES work...and, IMO, requires much less concentration than trying to clutch, shift, brake, and throttle blip simultaneously.

clutch in, release throttle, shift down, ease clutch out, a little front brake only if needed (frequently not needed), accelerate through turn.

I'll be the first to admit that I am inexperienced and not even close to pushing my bike to its limits...but this blipping/braking/downshifting thing just sounds complicated and IMO would be far more distracting on the street than just about any other method.

 

[Zak650]

I may have misspoken, the SV has tons of engine braking and I use it constantly for slowing down as I approach the corner. What I meant was trying to down shift and slow down to the point of sliding the rear tire due to downshifting into too low of a gear.

 

[Jesse H]

IMO

Braking/blipping/downshifting isn't very necessary for street riding; especially not for bikes with plenty of engine braking.

On the track, it's a whole 'nuther thing. I haven't done a track event on 2 wheels but I've done enough on 4 to know it's a good skill. Whether it's necessary or not, I find it fun. You'll also find that unless you're doing some SERIOUS braking, it will be tricky braking and downshifting simultaneously while being smooth. You'll have to actually be braking harder than the engine.

 

[ShaggyZ]

In one of the chapters of Code's Twist of the Wrist he explains why not to use engine braking. I understand that it's harder on the engine.
I hardly used the brakes at all on the track or the street. After reading Twist, I've decided he's right: brakes are cheaper and easier to replace than engines.

I've never really understood the need for blipping the throttle the way he describes it; but surely there is something to it - at least in the faster/more powerful bikes.

 

[RandyO]

In one of the chapters of Code's Twist of the Wrist  he explains why not to use engine braking.  I understand that it's harder on the engine.
I hardly used the brakes at all on the track or the street. After reading Twist, I've decided he's right: brakes are cheaper and easier to replace than engines.

I've never really understood the need for blipping the throttle the way he describes it; but surely there is something to it - at least in the faster/more powerful bikes.

other than over reving an engine, I fail to see how engine braking would cause any extra wear or damage

 

[ShaggyZ]

This is what Twist of the Wrist has to say about it. Chapter 8 - Braking, pg 68

Section: Braking and Downshifting

Downshifting is closely associated with braking because the two almost occur at the same time. From observation, it appears that most riders believe the engine is supposed to help slow or stop the bike. When you hear an engine spinning up toward redline going into a turn, you know the rider is trying to use it as a brake. Does this apply to you?

Section:The Engine Is Not a Brake!

It's supposed to increase the speed of the machine - not decrease. At any place where you have to use the brakes and downshift at the same time, it is not efficient or correct to use the engine to slow you. There isn't much weight on the rear wheel to begin with, and using the engine means you're going to have to replace the crank and pistons sooner. If you wish to slow down the rear wheel a bit, use the rear brake. It's cheaper to replace brake pads than crankshafts. Secondly, it's not correct to use the engine as a brake because that's not the purpose of downshifting. The purpose of downshifting is to bring the engine into the right rpm range as you begin to accelerate out of a turn.
Most riders seem to feel it's necessary to downshift as soon as possible after they begin to brake. In some cases there isn't time for a leisurely approach - the downshifting must be done immediately. But if there is time to wait, change gears when you can do it more leisurely.

 

[merlot]

One of the great benefits of a slow clutch release vs a rev match, is that it's far easier to have the engine speed match the gearing. The slow release gives the engine time to rev up properly to the lower gear, while a rev match, to be accurate, needs to be revved to the right RPM given the gear and speed. This adds dificulty in addition to the complicated mechanics of braking, throttle blipping, and downshifting. Reading the qouted Keith Code comments, he just mentions 1/4 of a turn on the throttle. How could this be accurate for every bike at every speed in every gear? It can't; only time and practice can do that, and it can't really be learned in a safe manner on the street (I know, I've tried).

Still, it's a techinque I'd love to learn (in both car and bike), but it's just to damn awkward for me to do on the street.

 

[macktruckturner]

I've not noticed a huge deal of required attention as far as the amount of throttle given during the blip - on two wheels or four. Actually, when I tried to get the engine speed exactly where I thought it needed to be on four wheels I'd frequently screw the whole ordeal up, and cost myself precious time on the track. I haven't bothered to extensively study, but I can say what works for me, and theorize as to why. A light tap on the gas pedal while braking, or a slight blip of the throttle while applying brake pressure at the moment before your clutch action to select your gear and giving your steering input works best for me - I give the same amount of throttle regardless of my speed, or gear. My best guess as to why this is smooth and "just works" is that the increased throttle already has the engine speed rising when the driveline speed difference to the flywheel would normally cause it to increase anyway. Inertia/momentum if I had to take a guess. I set my entry speed, and gear before I turn - and I power through the turn. I do that on the track, and on the street - on four wheels, or two.

 

[RandyO]

I don't actually "blip" the throttle, but I do crack it open a bit, just enuf to open the throttle plate a bit to reduce engine braking, that allows the engine to rev on its own as I let the clutch out

 

[jarelj]

This is what Twist of the Wrist has to say about it. Chapter 8 - Braking, pg 68

Section: Braking and DownshiftingSection:The Engine Is Not a Brake!

That is generally pretty good advice on the track from what I've found, if you rely on engine braking a lot (not saying you won't use it a little bit at least) it's only a matter of time before you hit a false neutral on one of your downshift and go rocketing off the track because you weren't braking hard enough. I've seen it happen to several people at track days. Use the front brake as the majority of your stopping power.

 

[ShaggyZ]

Exactly. I initially relied on engine braking at the track and almost had a run-in with some other riders for that very reason.

 

[steve_h]

I know I for one really suck at blipping the throttle during downshifting. I understand the concept, but rarely have I gotten it to work right. My brain fights trying to brake and hit the throttle at the same time. Too many scary incidents when my buddy was trying to teach me to ride I guess. Also I'm rarely in a position to use it on the street (I need to do a track day! ). I guess I should go to a parking lot away from traffic and pratice it for a few hours 'til I get the timing down.

 

[Maritan]

When your buddy was teaching you to ride?

Do yourself a favour. Go take the MSF course.

 

[steve_h]

When your buddy was teaching you to ride?

Do yourself a favour. Go take the MSF course.

I know. I know. I need to take it. Not that they teach this there though.

 

[Poe]

I agree with everything that Code has said. I've never read any of his books, but that's exactly what I do on the bike and in the cage. You rev-match the downshifts on the track to be SMOOTHER (faster) and the get the revs up where they need to be on a corner exit (faster). It's really not as difficult as the steps make it sound. Once you get used to it, you don't even think about it. If you're going into a corner hot and braking HARD - and I mean pushing it to near the limits of adhesion - and you're ALSO slowly releasing the clutch on a downshift, then you're basically trying to modulate TWO brakes (THREE if you're also using the rear brake). MUCH harder to modulate all that than if you do it Code's way IMHO. If you release the clutch too fast in that situation (and it wouldn't take much), the rear WILL skid. Not good - especially if you do it after you've leaned into the turn. With Code's way, the downshift is over immediately - leaving you to concentrate on your braking/cornering. With the "downshift & drag the clutch" method, the downshift takes a long time to complete - requiring concentration that could be better used elsewhere. It's going to make you slower.

It's not "necessary" on the street, but it definitely smooths things out - and, as someone said, could come in very handy in an emergency/panic situation. It's easier on your bike as well. All that time you're slowly releasing your clutch after a downshift, it's dragging (wearing) until the engine spins up and you fully release it (and no, this is NOT how a slipper clutch works at all - quite the opposite). It's no different than if you sit at a red light and rev the engine with the clutch partially engaged. Unnecessary wear. Also, if you do most of your braking with the front instead of relying on engine braking, your rear tire will last longer. It already takes all of the wear from acceleration. If you also use it for braking, it's going to wear out sooner than it otherwise would.

Just my $0.02... take it or leave it.

 

[RandyO]

I agree with everything that Code has said.  I've never read any of his books, but that's exactly what I do on the bike and in the cage.  You rev-match the downshifts on the track to be SMOOTHER (faster) and the get the revs up where they need to be on a corner exit (faster).  It's really not as difficult as the steps make it sound.  Once you get used to it, you don't even think about it.  If you're going into a corner hot and braking HARD - and I mean pushing it to near the limits of adhesion - and you're ALSO slowly releasing the clutch on a downshift, then you're basically trying to modulate TWO brakes (THREE if you're also using the rear brake).  MUCH harder to modulate all that than if you do it Code's way IMHO.  If you release the clutch too fast in that situation (and it wouldn't take much), the rear WILL skid.  Not good - especially if you do it after you've leaned into the turn.  With Code's way, the downshift is over immediately - leaving you to concentrate on your braking/cornering.  With the "downshift & drag the clutch" method, the downshift takes a long time to complete - requiring concentration that could be better used elsewhere.  It's going to make you slower.

It's not "necessary" on the street, but it definitely smooths things out - and, as someone said, could come in very handy in an emergency/panic situation.  It's easier on your bike as well.  All that time you're slowly releasing your clutch after a downshift, it's dragging (wearing) until the engine spins up and you fully release it (and no, this is NOT how a slipper clutch works at all - quite the opposite).  It's no different than if you sit at a red light and rev the engine with the clutch partially engaged.  Unnecessary wear.  Also, if you do most of your braking with the front instead of relying on engine braking, your rear tire will last longer.  It already takes all of the wear from acceleration.  If you also use it for braking, it's going to wear out sooner than it otherwise would.

Just my $0.02... take it or leave it.

I got 102k miles from my original clutch fibre plates and springs, I still have original steel plates @ 123 , I slip clutch during downshifts, ..... and I get 12k-13k miles on a set of ST tires , and I'm a fat bastard too :-[

how many more miles do you think I could have got out of my clutch if I changed my habits ? how many more miles could I get out of a set of tires. I think a lot of Codes ideas are conjecture not supported by evidence

Don't get me wrong , I am not claiming to be an expert myself, and I my methods might even unconsiously be very close to the same as Codes, Not all perforance riding is necessary or even proper for the street, being a good performence rider doesn't make you a good street rider

 

[misko]

That is generally pretty good advice on the track from what I've found, if you rely on engine braking a lot (not saying you won't use it a little bit at least) it's only a matter of time before you hit a false neutral on one of your downshift and go rocketing off the track because you weren't braking hard enough.  I've seen it happen to several people at track days.  Use the front brake as the majority of your stopping power. 

+1 ....another downside to engine breaking at the track is time. Coasting costs time. From the instruction I've received, it's been narrowed down to two things - You're either on the gas or brake, that's it. I've picked up a few seconds from this alone.

On the street, I don't see the need for fast braking AND downshifting at the same time. If I have a car jump out in front of me, I don't worry about being in the right gear when I stop, I just want to stop. I think the ability to emergency brake there is much more important, worry about shifting once it's over. On the street, I actually enjoy the engine braking as I find the rhythm of going from corner to corner without brakes, just playing with the throttle, very relaxing and fun.

On the track it's a lot more work to get everything done at once, but it's also a different kind of high and that's part of it. On the street riding like that just feels like too much work.

Just my $0.02

 

[jarelj]

Re: braking, downshifting and slipper clutches

+1 ....another downside to engine breaking at the track is time. Coasting costs time. From the instruction I've received, it's been narrowed down to two things - You're either on the gas or brake, that's it. I've picked up a few seconds from this alone.

It took me a while to get that part down also, but it is definitely a big help in getting faster - NO COASTING! And slipper clutches are AWESOME on the track from what I've experienced on my SV and Duc. Banging down 3 gears and just throwing it into the turn is a lot of fun and allows you to spend your attention on other aspects of corner entry, like turn-in point, apex, etc. without worrying about the exact timing of the blip-downshift to keep the rear tire from skipping. Not that you can't ride just as fast by blipping, but it takes more timing and skill to get it perfect and there's less room for error when you're riding on the edge. The people who I have let ride my SV with the slipper have all reacted postively about how much easier it is to ride, but it takes some getting used to when you don't have as much engine braking as before. To me, that means they were using too much engine braking before and not enough brakes! I wish the slippers weren't so expensive, I'll bet most people on the track would be running them if they were $50, which to me means that it's not that they're not beneficial but it's more a question of cost-benefit. There's a big difference between "you don't NEED a slipper clutch" vs. "you won't BENEFIT from a slipper clutch". As I see it, there's no downside to them on the track other than cost. I think the benefit for "normal" street riding would be marginal at best, and certainly not worth the cost IMO.