[mushin]

Mushin thank you for all of that solid advice- that was exactly what I was looking for! ccasion14:

The GSXR master lever has the end broken off it so I can only assume that the donor bike was down at one point. Additionally I can't rotate the assembly far down enough for the lever angle/position my fingers prefer. For those reasons I'm going to replace the master with an R1/R6 unit as you've described or a 2014+ GSXR unit (post-recall). I'd love to buy a Brembo RCS19 or 19x18 and just be done with it but spending more on one part than I have on this whole swap (wheel, axle, triples, brakes, forks, DIY fork rebuild and tools) seems kind of dumb.

I'll rebuild the calipers with new seals and clean everything again in the parts washer, brake cleaner and compressed air. I'll also buy a rebuild kit for whatever MC I end up with and go through that as well.

Sounds good. I really like the R6 radial master - better feel than the GSXR in my opinion. I rode a bike with an Accossato master on it and it was amazing how much feel and control it had over the OEM R6 master but the cost is stupid high for a street bike. A Brembo will also be better but for a recreational rider it might be a bit high. The R6 master is more than sufficient for most of us, I think, and the prices are reachable. Just be sure to clean it before you trust it.

Most of us who do GSXR fork swaps are using parts in unknown condition. Your life depends on the function of those parts so its smart to rebuild everything you can to be sure it will work as intended - forks, brakes, master, steering stem bearings - go through it all. The time for a part to fail is not at speed.

 

[r0ckrat]

How about water in the brake fluid? Is that a valid reason? It takes only a few weeks for water to begin to accumulate and it gets worse over time. I flush my brakes every 6-8 months and actually repack and preload my steering stem bearings annually. So far, I haven't had problems that so many other guys seem to have so a few minutes spent is time spent wisely in my opinion.

Unless you are riding track (or riding completely unreasonably on the street), you are unlikely to ever boil your fluid - the main reason to worry about moisture in the fluid. Common sense dictates changing annually at most in very moisture rich environments, every 2 years otherwise unless the bike is being used for track. 6 months of use is not going to gain any real advantage for the system - it's like changing oil every 1000 miles. Sure, it will always be fresh, if you use a new bottle of fluid every time you change. But if you don't use a brand new bottle of fluid every change, you are still getting water in your fluid.

Go ahead, if it makes you feel better.

 

[RickM]

Just to touch on the brake fluid change intervals:
I depends on the fluid you use as well. Most standard fluid marketed for street vehicles are good for a year at least IMO
A lot of hi performance brake fluids(like Motul RBF600) have a shorter life and not a bad idea to change twice a year. It's not just the drop off in performance. Old/contaminated/worn out fluids can cause corrosion and deposits inside the brake system.

I started using Castrol GT LMA on my street bike as it has a very long life relatice to other fluids I have tried. I went 2 years on my VFR with GT LMA in it without any drop in performance or change in fluid color.

 

[mushin]

Unless you are riding track (or riding completely unreasonably on the street), you are unlikely to ever boil your fluid - the main reason to worry about moisture in the fluid. Common sense dictates changing annually at most in very moisture rich environments, every 2 years otherwise unless the bike is being used for track. 6 months of use is not going to gain any real advantage for the system - it's like changing oil every 1000 miles. Sure, it will always be fresh, if you use a new bottle of fluid every time you change. But if you don't use a brand new bottle of fluid every change, you are still getting water in your fluid.

Go ahead, if it makes you feel better.

Maybe the boiling point is the main reason for some but I am more concerned with how water affects the corrosion inhibitors in the fluid. The volume in a motorcycle brake system is very small compared to a car so the amount of corrosion inhibitors in the fluid is reduced proportionally. As these inhibitors are consumed the amount of corrosion and sludge build up increases. This softens seals in the master and calipers and causes deposits to build in the master return ports and around the piston/seal assembly. Pull apart a master and have a look at the crud that builds up in there. Also look at the amount of oxidation you will find on the walls of the bore, the stuff that cuts the seals as the brake is activated.

Before I bought Speed Bleeders I used to change fluids every 2 years, too. However, it takes 5 minutes to flush the entire front brake system with them so I do it more often. Late last year I took my front R6 master apart to see what was going on in there. It was cleaned and installed in 2010 so I was curious. There was zero sludge and no sign of oxidation in the bore and the return ports were wide open.

The same condition in my GSXR caliper bores was found - clean, no further oxidation occurred since I rebuilt them in 2010. They were plenty corroded when I got the brakes but I cleaned them and there has been no deterioration since then.

My brakes are my lifeline and I tend to pay attention to them, perhaps more than most. That's fine - my bike, my time - and I don't expect others to agree but I know from my own experience what works for me. An annual flush is the most I will go anymore.

Most discussions about brake fluid centers around the amount of water absorbed into the fluid and how that alters braking efficiency but few even consider the effect of that water on the components in the brake system. Now look at all the threads on this forum about "my rear brake doesn't work" or "my front brakes suddenly locked up and dumped me on my head". Guess why.

 

[snailman153624]

How about water in the brake fluid? Is that a valid reason? It takes only a few weeks for water to begin to accumulate and it gets worse over time. I flush my brakes every 6-8 months and actually repack and preload my steering stem bearings annually. So far, I haven't had problems that so many other guys seem to have so a few minutes spent is time spent wisely in my opinion.

The mod is already done. When it is sorted out it will work better than the stock brakes.

Unless you are leaving the cap loose or you have a bad seal, it takes many years for any significant moisture to accumulate. You sound like a Harley owner, always needing to tweak something that's broken. It's not a Harley, and its designed to go many years between fluid changes. Please, argue with the Suzuki manual some more. Meanwhile the rest of the world will focus on other things, like the op replacing a damaged lever instead of pointlessly flushing fluids.

 

[mushin]

Unless you are leaving the cap loose or you have a bad seal, it takes many years for any significant moisture to accumulate. You sound like a Harley owner, always needing to tweak something that's broken. It's not a Harley, and its designed to go many years between fluid changes. Please, argue with the Suzuki manual some more. Meanwhile the rest of the world will focus on other things, like the op replacing a damaged lever instead of pointlessly flushing fluids.

You are wrong. Even with a closed system, air gets in and with it comes water. It gets in through rubber lines and seals as well as any vent in the system. It does not take "many years"; it takes much less than that. For this reason, every major brake fluid manufacturer and brake pad manufacturer suggest brake fluid changes every 1-2 years for non-race applications.

I flush during my semi-annual maintenance dates as part of a slew of things I check/change. It is my routine and works for me. I am not saying anyone else needs to do the same. I am saying that changing brake fluid at least annually is wise, even for Harley owners who aren't running Dot 5 fluid. Of course, if you don't care about corrosion of your components or reduced braking performance then don't change your fluid for years.

 

[r0ckrat]

I think the fluid in my brakes was original when I changed it last year. It's an '06. No issues, only a little discolored, no evidence of corrosion. Just under 40k miles.


Go figure.

 

[TeeRiver]

To each his own. Nothing wrong with being vigilant with maintenance, especially brakes. The psychological benefit alone can be worth it. Otoh, I am guilty of flaunting maintenance schedules. Sometimes I push to the limit (not so far with safety items) just to learn where the true limit is.

For example, I do not change spark plugs (still have the originals in my '03) unless starting/mpg/power tells me to. I got 2 cyl so if one craps out I still make it home. And an SV650 chain is good for about 15k miles, no lube, no cleaning, in SoCal climate.

 

[-Dutch-]

And an SV650 chain is good for about 15k miles, no lube, no cleaning, in SoCal climate.

 

[TeeRiver]

Careful, I will whip you with my dry chain!

I am not proud, just lazy.

 

[mushin]

I think the fluid in my brakes was original when I changed it last year. It's an '06. No issues, only a little discolored, no evidence of corrosion. Just under 40k miles.


Go figure.

Had a kid with an 08 GSXR 600 crash due to locked up front brakes - never flushed or changed his brake fluid. When we got the master apart the return ports to the reservoir were so plugged up it looked like someone mushed a bar of milk chocolate in there. There was so much oxidation in the bore of the master that it looked to be more white than silver in there.

Experiences vary and our behavior changes accordingly. Personally, I don't like crashing and if simple maintenance is all it takes to avoid that then that's what I'll do. I certainly will not recommend that people go for extended periods before they change their brake fluid. Some of our members are new guys and they may listen and follow the advice of the more experienced guys - what message are we trying to send them?

 

[r0ckrat]

I'm not suggesting that it not be done on an annual or bi-annual schedule. This change was about 1-1/2 years into bike ownership for me. So it was a routine maintenance item that I did within the first two years.

What I am saying is that stating that it must be changed every 6 mos. is a little outrageous for something that, while critical, is specifically designed for a much greater interval that what you are using.

 

[Doooglasss]

Is your lever bent in the area shown in this box? I did a GSXR front end swap a few years ago and inadvertently bent my lever in this spot. It was bent towards the MC, so it never fully disengaged, causing pressure to build as I used the brakes all the way until a full lockup.

You were 100% correct- my brake lever was bent in this exact location and I can see how that would cause it to not disengage fully.

This is a serious problem and really demands the cause be known before rebuilding or going forward. The last thing you want to do is do some work and hope it is fixed.

You can tell if the return port in the master cyl is blocked by removing the caliper and use a C-clamp to retract the piston (just remove one caliper). When pushing in the piston you should be able to see the fluid level rise in the MC reservoir. If the piston won't budge, remove the brake lever from the MC and try again. If this allows the piston to move then %100 sure the lever is holding the MC return port closed. As mentioned, this can happen with a mismatched or damaged lever. This identical problem has been posted to SVR a few times.

If removing the lever does not free the system, try crack the banjo at the MC. If this allows the piston to retract then the MC return port itself is clogged.

I agree and I don't want to be the test dummy!

I tried your test last night with a C clamp, but unfortunately I have to bleed my brakes again because to get the bike home after the accident I had to crack the bleeders to relieve the pressure. I'll bleed them and try this before replacing parts just to give myself a sense of security.

I purchased:
2x caliper rebuild kits
Brembo RCS 19
Galfer stainless lines (just to make bleeding easier, that caliper > caliper OEM hose sucks)

When shopping for R1/R6 calipers I realized they were smaller at 16mm, costly at $120+ and I would have to rebuild them (+$40) and buy levers in many cases (+$?). Spending money on brakes seemed important so I went with the RCS.

I'm trying to think up a way to test the front brakes by simulating the front tire at speed. Best suggestion I've had so far is a drill chuck against the front tire to spin it but I feel like that might be too slow to generate the same heat as 40+mph street riding. Any suggestions?

Having to do with the current discussion after this experience I will be adding brake bleeding to my annual maintenance list. If it costs me $10-20 year for a small container of brake fluid so I don't have to hit the ground again I'm OK with that.

 

[mushin]

What I am saying is that stating that it must be changed every 6 mos.

Never said that it must be every 6 months but every year or so is probably a good idea.

 

[snailman153624]

Never said that it must be every 6 months but every year or so is probably a good idea.

Suzuki, the designer and mfr. of the motorcycle, says it's a good idea every two years...see section 2-26, or the maintenance interval table at the top:

http://www.sv650.info/download/serwisowki_2003/2_Periodic_Maintenance.pdf

Anything more often (when it's not needed....that's what an inspection determines), particularly on a street bike, is a complete waste of time and money, and is more likely to create other problems, like stripped threads on a fastener, or introducing contamination that wouldn't have been there in the first place if you hadn't unscrewed the cap to change it 4x as often as the mfr. recommends.

This is to keep the bike in "peak" operating condition. Most people probably go much longer and never have problems. I personally prefer to inspect, and only replace as parts/fluids are approaching (note, not exceeding) the end of their usable life. In my experience, most parts and fluids are good for much longer than the standard maintenance schedule, and this is especially a proven fact with oil changes on cars. Modern oils, particularly synthetics, are good for 15k+ miles, so long as the filter is occasionally changed.

Also, the manual states that it is DOT 4, not DOT 5, fluid from the factory. I can't speak for the GSX-R.

 

[tovar]

Depends on use and fluid. More you use it more often you should change it. Sometime that is 1 year and sometime 3 years.
More often is better than not often enough.

 

[TeeRiver]

Depends on use and fluid. More you use it more often you should change it. Sometime that is 1 year and sometime 3 years.
More often is better than not often enough.

Just like underwear?




I guess 1yr would be pretty long though.

 

[mushin]

Suzuki, the designer and mfr. of the motorcycle, says it's a good idea every two years...see section 2-26, or the maintenance interval table at the top:

http://www.sv650.info/download/serwisowki_2003/2_Periodic_Maintenance.pdf

Anything more often (when it's not needed....that's what an inspection determines), particularly on a street bike, is a complete waste of time and money, and is more likely to create other problems, like stripped threads on a fastener, or introducing contamination that wouldn't have been there in the first place if you hadn't unscrewed the cap to change it 4x as often as the mfr. recommends.

This is to keep the bike in "peak" operating condition. Most people probably go much longer and never have problems. I personally prefer to inspect, and only replace as parts/fluids are approaching (note, not exceeding) the end of their usable life. In my experience, most parts and fluids are good for much longer than the standard maintenance schedule, and this is especially a proven fact with oil changes on cars. Modern oils, particularly synthetics, are good for 15k+ miles, so long as the filter is occasionally changed.

Also, the manual states that it is DOT 4, not DOT 5, fluid from the factory. I can't speak for the GSX-R.

Many modern Harleys (which you raised) use Dot 5 silicone brake fluid; its purple.

How do you inspect your brake fluid to tell if it is at the end of its useful life? You cannot tell from the color, although that is a common misconception. The problem is that our bikes don't have copper-lined steel brake lines so we can't rely on the copper level testers commonly available for brake fluid testing, and I don't own a refractometer, so I choose to change it rather than guess. The interval I use coincides with my maintenance schedule and since its my money and I don't strip fasteners often, if ever, it works for me. This is usually 6-9 month intervals, but I've gone a year when I get lazy. You can use what you like but going for "many years"? Not a good idea.

As for Suzuki, they are stating an average. Two years is the max most brake fluid manufacturers will go so two years is probably okay but so much depends on usage and local conditions. If you live in a high humidity area like I do then water absorbtion will be higher.

Similarly, synthetic automotive engine oils do have the capability of extended change intervals but to do so it is best to have an oil analysis done if going over the manufacturer's recommended interval. Blackstone labs is excellent for this purpose. I've used them for over a decade and listen to their advice.

So, let's end this. Do what you like, Snailman. I'm just a know-nothing brake fluid replacer.

 

[snailman153624]

Many modern Harleys (which you raised) use Dot 5 silicone brake fluid; its purple.

How do you inspect your brake fluid to tell if it is at the end of its useful life? You cannot tell from the color, although that is a common misconception. The problem is that our bikes don't have copper-lined steel brake lines so we can't rely on the copper level testers commonly available for brake fluid testing, and I don't own a refractometer, so I choose to change it rather than guess. The interval I use coincides with my maintenance schedule and since its my money and I don't strip fasteners often, if ever, it works for me. This is usually 6-9 month intervals, but I've gone a year when I get lazy. You can use what you like but going for "many years"? Not a good idea.

As for Suzuki, they are stating an average. Two years is the max most brake fluid manufacturers will go so two years is probably okay but so much depends on usage and local conditions. If you live in a high humidity area like I do then water absorbtion will be higher.

Similarly, synthetic automotive engine oils do have the capability of extended change intervals but to do so it is best to have an oil analysis done if going over the manufacturer's recommended interval. Blackstone labs is excellent for this purpose. I've used them for over a decade and listen to their advice.

So, let's end this. Do what you like, Snailman. I'm just a know-nothing brake fluid replacer.

Yes you are, and so much so you insist a guy who crashed his bike from a bent lever change his fluid to fix his brake problems.

 

[tovar]

Just like underwear?




I guess 1yr would be pretty long though.

I can tell you I change brake fluid in my car more often than underwear ;D
I can't even get one day on brake fluid.