OK, I just watched a documentary about oil. Let's face it, then era of oil is ending. Thankfully I'm 63 years old, so when that last drop of gas gets pumped, I'll be resting in my grave (sitting on my SV, if I have my way). So I have a question: Have any of you run ethanol in your SV's? Did it do any damage? I know it doesn't remain stable for long, and can lead to tank corrosion. I also know that the AMA is against the use of ethanol fuels, but the AMA is also against helmets- and that's kind of stupid. So, anyone see any damage from the use of ethanol fuels? Damage to the injectors? Other stuff? Fill me in.
Dave Art
In case you don't know, E0 is not available everywhere in the US anymore. I can only find it in a couple of marine yards and maybe two stations in all of NJ. It hasn't been available for quite some time. I use Sta-bil (stabilizer) for winter storage. The E10 has never given my FI Triumph any issues and that bike is 18yrs old. Same for my '01 SVS that I had for nine years. It can cause corrosion, jet clogging and for some Nylon tanks(think Ducati and Triumph) swelling that can lead to other issues. My Triumph's Nylon tank is rated at 4.75 gal, but now will hold 5gal. E10 gas has less energy per molecule than E0, so mpg may suffer a bit and possibly some power, but I didn't notice a thing with any of my bikes. However, I never tried them E0. I bought a brand new Honda lawnmower with tiny carb jets that did not like E10. One year later I sold the mower and bought an electric mower. So, E10 will not damage a modern bike's engine or fuel hoses as long as it's stated in the owner's manual which for the SV, it does. If the gov't allows E15 or E20 as the standard, then problems will arise for motorcycles that are not set up for it. My Chevy HHR has a flex fuel engine that can burn E85, which doesn't exist on the east coast. That's another scam and another thread. Ethanol will damage a fiberglass tank, so they need to be sealed and lined.
Thanks for the info. Very informative. I'm sure I've run E10 in my bike on many occasions without damaging anything ( I live in California), although if I have a choice I do go to pure gasoline. The documentary I was watching made a pretty strong case for methanol, so it got me wondering.
I don't think burning any alcohol is the answer for internal combustion engines. But, I'm no fuel scientist. Gasoline is a great fuel molecule. There are also winter/summer formulations of gasoline that change the engine's performance as well. Trying to clean up emissions is tough tech, but VW has evidently found the magic wand.
The same VW who is in trouble right now for putting "cheater" systems in some of their new cars to create the illusion of cleaner emissions?
E10 should be fine in most new bikes, since they should be designed to run on it. Older machines and carburetors are where you can run into issues with long term use.
E10 should be fine in most new bikes, since they should be designed to run on it. Older machines and carburetors are where you can run into issues with long term use.
I don't have a lot of facts about ethanol, but it seems like newer vehicles should be designed to handle it if the manufacturers know this is the future. However, I don't see gasoline dissappearing anytime soon. Though I do agree that we need to find alternative fuel solutions.
Personally, I'd like to have a nuclear powered bike. That would be way cool.
Personally, I'd like to have a nuclear powered bike. That would be way cool.
No thanks.
Overall more minuses than pluses. It mostly makes sense in situations where turbos and high boost are used, but for daily use there are too many issues and complications to be practical.
Overall more minuses than pluses. It mostly makes sense in situations where turbos and high boost are used, but for daily use there are too many issues and complications to be practical.
Construction of ethanol plants have pretty much ceased. Without gov. Subsidies production of it has very little economical or even environmental positive impact for planet earth in general. Good riddance to bad rubbish. JMO and I worked as a consultant for ICM, one trip to a "state of the art" operating facility and holy cow this is not viable. Let alone what the POS co. Abingoa was building in the US.
Most everybody runs E10 these days. It's hard to find places that have pure gas.
E10 is safe to run in anything, although, small engines tend to not run very well with it.
However, get above E10 and you'll start having issues. Many automakers will void your warranty if you run higher than E10. IIRC, the Ethanol requires special rubber parts as it breaks down standard stuff in higher concentrations.... Again, IIRC.
Aside from that, IMO, [Corn based] Ethanol is bad for us. To make ethanol you grow corn, which uses energy, fertilizer, etc to grow and harvest. It uses more energy to process into Ethanol. It reduces mileage, it costs more, and it causes our food to cost more, because the corn is now going into Ethanol production rather than the food supply. And it is unstable, and gas goes bad quickly, causing my lawn mower to not run. I just hate the stuff.
E10 is safe to run in anything, although, small engines tend to not run very well with it.
However, get above E10 and you'll start having issues. Many automakers will void your warranty if you run higher than E10. IIRC, the Ethanol requires special rubber parts as it breaks down standard stuff in higher concentrations.... Again, IIRC.
Aside from that, IMO, [Corn based] Ethanol is bad for us. To make ethanol you grow corn, which uses energy, fertilizer, etc to grow and harvest. It uses more energy to process into Ethanol. It reduces mileage, it costs more, and it causes our food to cost more, because the corn is now going into Ethanol production rather than the food supply. And it is unstable, and gas goes bad quickly, causing my lawn mower to not run. I just hate the stuff.
bad government idea,
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2.../2005-04-01/study-ethanol-production-consumes-six-units-energy-produce-just-one
Due to the high affinity for the absorption of water, ethanol is not very stable. It takes special tanks at the gas stations (which most don't have) for the higher concentrate. Current pipelines cannot handle pure ethanol, so it must be transported by truck or rail.
the list goes on and on.
besides that it raises the price of certain beverages.
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2.../2005-04-01/study-ethanol-production-consumes-six-units-energy-produce-just-one
Due to the high affinity for the absorption of water, ethanol is not very stable. It takes special tanks at the gas stations (which most don't have) for the higher concentrate. Current pipelines cannot handle pure ethanol, so it must be transported by truck or rail.
the list goes on and on.
besides that it raises the price of certain beverages.
Many high performance engines will make more power once they're switched over to ethanol (or methanol) and properly tuned for it. I'd imagine my SV would respond pretty favorably to E85 if the ECU could be adjusted enough seeing as it's running 12.5:1 CR. The injectors would need upgraded to higher flow versions as the stockers are getting close to maxed out now on gasoline, and I'm not sure how the ECU would respond to the tuning needed...but there IS more power to be had with E85 on a high CR motor.
Back in the early '90's we were building some airplanes using Chevy engines with a mechanical FI system. Swapping over to methanol was as easy as changing the pill and they responded with about 80 HP increase...this on a normal 420 horse motor IIRC.
The reason methanol can make more power is tied to the octane being high enough to tolerate (or even demand) high CR's and the fact that you must dump in around 30% more fuel volume creates a much cooler and more dense intake charge.
We've played with a 2014 Chrysler Flex-Fuel V-6 van that seems to tolerate the E85 just fine and maintains about the same mileage with it too! This was surprising, but they must be altering the tune significantly when using the alcohol which mostly makes up for the lesser btu content of the fuel.
Back in the early '90's we were building some airplanes using Chevy engines with a mechanical FI system. Swapping over to methanol was as easy as changing the pill and they responded with about 80 HP increase...this on a normal 420 horse motor IIRC.
The reason methanol can make more power is tied to the octane being high enough to tolerate (or even demand) high CR's and the fact that you must dump in around 30% more fuel volume creates a much cooler and more dense intake charge.
We've played with a 2014 Chrysler Flex-Fuel V-6 van that seems to tolerate the E85 just fine and maintains about the same mileage with it too! This was surprising, but they must be altering the tune significantly when using the alcohol which mostly makes up for the lesser btu content of the fuel.
What documentary did you see? Why did you take it at face value?
Just based on your age you should know that claim has been made as long as you have lived, and always been wrong. Right now there is so much oil the Saudis are running a price war to knockout the frackers. We are nowhere near running out of oil, any shortage would be a soft fail where the price just kept creeping higher so the cost/benefit changed. The current push seems more political than anything. Why they want to reduce freedom and opportunity for so many people is beyond me. And should be beyond you.
Sorry, but after reading this I had to go for your base premise, cause it's wrong.
Not only that, but if you think we are burying you with a perfectly good SV, you're crazy.
(I'm just sayin'.)
As said before, its fine for vehicles which are DESIGNED to handle it, older ones and small engines, not so much. My YZF750 has been through multiple seals in the carbs and fuel pump due to E10 (mainly when I used to ride with the Chicago guys from a different website. Cant find pure gas anywhere around Chi-town). Here we have Kwik Trip's and their premium is 100% gas.
Guy at works new Silverado loses 6mpg when he uses E85. Wouldn't be so bad if E85 was a lot cheaper than regular, but here its not much cheaper than regular.
Guy at works new Silverado loses 6mpg when he uses E85. Wouldn't be so bad if E85 was a lot cheaper than regular, but here its not much cheaper than regular.
I always argue that if something is actually a legitimate fuel it needs to offer more energy than it takes to make it. Oil easily qualifies, but not so with ethanol. Every time I've checked making ethanol takes quite a bit more energy than what remains when it's finished and ready for the tank. So it's a drain on our energy resources rather than helping it.
Brazil has tons and tons of leftover sugar cane and their alcohol creation makes a lot more sense than us using any food worthy grains to convert into fuel for our cars. The cost of food HAS increased because of the ethanol business in the USA...and any surplus corn we used to have went cheaply to other countries where they're all angry that their burritos cost a lot more now.
The biggest argument against ethanol is that any OBD 2 equipped vehicle makes exactly the same emissions with E10 as straight gas. Only carburetted engines benefit at all from oxygenated fuels and nobody has been able to document any pollution benefit from all the EPA mandated fuel blends across the USA. It's a gigantic make-work project for EPA workers and really screws up the distribution network in the country where a single refinery going down causes massive problems for that segment that was using that particular blend. No other refineries can cover the shortages so the people PAY dearly.
Brazil has tons and tons of leftover sugar cane and their alcohol creation makes a lot more sense than us using any food worthy grains to convert into fuel for our cars. The cost of food HAS increased because of the ethanol business in the USA...and any surplus corn we used to have went cheaply to other countries where they're all angry that their burritos cost a lot more now.
The biggest argument against ethanol is that any OBD 2 equipped vehicle makes exactly the same emissions with E10 as straight gas. Only carburetted engines benefit at all from oxygenated fuels and nobody has been able to document any pollution benefit from all the EPA mandated fuel blends across the USA. It's a gigantic make-work project for EPA workers and really screws up the distribution network in the country where a single refinery going down causes massive problems for that segment that was using that particular blend. No other refineries can cover the shortages so the people PAY dearly.
I really try to use non-ethanol when I can help it, I've only run 10% ethanol once or twice while in a pinch, ethanol free gasoline is pretty common around where I live in upstate NY. I don't think ethanol will do any damage as long as you don't leave it for a long while without stabilizer.
Good comment. A word of advice to check the dates of the last comments in the thread, though. This one is almost seven years old! 😉
Oooh. I like a good necro post. 
Non ethanol gas is not easily available here.
Well, maybe at the airport or marina.
Non ethanol gas is not easily available here.
Well, maybe at the airport or marina.
Rise from your grave…..
I don’t put E10 in my bike either. There is a gas station about 5 minutes from the house that has non ethanol 87 so it’s easy enough to get. It’s the same price as premium tho so that’s not so cool.
I use it in all my small engines lawn mower, go carts, mini bikes, and motorcycles. They have a higher chance of sitting for a while with fuel in them so it’s a safer route. Of course if I’m out and about I’ll throw E10 in if there is no other option. I just make sure to run it all out in a few days or put in stabilizer if I know it will sit long term. Can’t say I’ve noticed any difference beyond losing a mpg or two with E10.
I don’t put E10 in my bike either. There is a gas station about 5 minutes from the house that has non ethanol 87 so it’s easy enough to get. It’s the same price as premium tho so that’s not so cool.
I use it in all my small engines lawn mower, go carts, mini bikes, and motorcycles. They have a higher chance of sitting for a while with fuel in them so it’s a safer route. Of course if I’m out and about I’ll throw E10 in if there is no other option. I just make sure to run it all out in a few days or put in stabilizer if I know it will sit long term. Can’t say I’ve noticed any difference beyond losing a mpg or two with E10.
I just ran some ethanol-free 91 octane with stabilizer in the dirt bike that was over 2 years old.
Ran fine.
Stored in a closed can, which is better than in the tank. A closed can doesn't allow the fuel to lose volatility, like it will if it's vented.
I do drain the floatbowls on the dirt bikes while they are sitting, and they fire right up.
Ran fine.
Stored in a closed can, which is better than in the tank. A closed can doesn't allow the fuel to lose volatility, like it will if it's vented.
I do drain the floatbowls on the dirt bikes while they are sitting, and they fire right up.
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