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Discussion Starter #1
Yes...how silly is this!? For me to go to a store and buy a single shot .22lr pistol I have to fill out the 4473 Federal Firearms form as well as a second one for the State, then pay for a call to the Background Check and of course State Tax. Go a little deeper and you find you are also paying 11% Federal Tax on firearms so there's quite a chunk of change going out of your pocket to purchase a legal firearm in the USA.

Now....I just bought a Glock 17 (9mm with 17 round mags) through the mail from Midway USA, complete and it had NO Federal or State paperwork involved with it. Plus...NO SERIAL NUMBER! How can this be...you ask?

Enter the wonderful world of 80% fire arms my friend!:) Mine is made from a Polymer 80 frame (https://www.polymer80.com/) and has slide and barrel by Swenson along with factory Glock trigger and slide internals. Once it's finished the gun is fully functional and in some ways better than what Glock offers being as the grip frame comes in several color and texture options and it fits my hand much better. I like it!;)

But now...you're probably wondering why these 'Grey Guns' without serial numbers and bought through the mail off of the internet not being involved in mass gangland shootings? One of our Members over on a gun forum I frequent (and why my name is RecoilRob) works as a firearms examiner for a Police Dept. in LA, and he says that they haven't found a single 'Grey Gun' used in the commission of a crime.

The main reason is they're not completed and require some milling/drilling and fitting to become functional and legally this makes ME the 'manufacturer'. And let me tell you that doing that last 20% was a bit of a challenge and required some troubleshooting and fine adjustments to get it to run. What most gang-bangers do is either steal a good gun or buy something cheap with HighPoint leading the list being as they're not expensive and do seem to be reliable.

So I wasn't sure that anyone would be interested in something like this, but if you're up for a challenge and want to build a pistol....the Poly80 kits are pretty nice and if you do your work properly you end up with a totally functional Glock. Compared to buying one you can save about $100-150 depending on what sights/slide/barrel/trigger/ect you choose.

In case you were wondering...yes, I CAN sell the gun, but must put a serial number on it for sale. You can own a gun without the numbers, but it must have been made that way and if you have one where the original numbers have been removed...you will be in Heap Big Trouble. We can sell two guns a year without requiring a Manufacturers License, but that's not why I built it. Once it's proven to be reliable it's going to be my daily carry in the car being as it's quite a bit smaller and more handy than the 24/7 45 in use now. Just thought some of you bike guys/gals might find this interesting.:)
 

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Any idea what a stop would be like with an officer who isn't up to date on this and finds you with your non numbered gun?

I've thought about it, being a machinist, I can't imagine the last 20% of would would be hard.
 

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There was an article in Wired Magazine a few years ago about Ghost Guns.

I think Ghost Guns are not much involved in crimes since folks who make them need to be fairly smart and have machining skill. Those characteristics, fairly orthogonal to shoot-em-up types. :ready:


Rob, how much to build one for me? :evil6: Can I have SN001?
 

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More interesting to me would be the idea of taking the serialized trigger module from like, a P320, and having a grip module/stock 3D printed.
 

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Any idea what a stop would be like with an officer who isn't up to date on this and finds you with your non numbered gun?

I've thought about it, being a machinist, I can't imagine the last 20% of would would be hard.
Unless they have a search or arrest warrant, what would they be doing "finding" anything? You don't have to hand anything over for inspection besides registration and insurance during a routine traffic stop. What you described sounds like a wrongful arrest lawsuit, and violation of constitutional rights lawsuit, neither of which would end well for the offending cop/police department.

Regarding this topic, the fact that anyone with basic tool/machine knowledge can build whatever they want is nothing new. I'm not sure why it was posted in the manner it was... Every other sentence acts like people should be amazed or bewildered that this is "allowed." Last I checked, we lived in a free country, and building things at home is the backbone of innovation, and self sufficiency. Some asshat politician is not who I look to for advice on how to run my life.

It's a simple fact of life, creative and determined people can build anything they set their mind to. Rules and regulations will at best only slow them down a little.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Regarding this topic, the fact that anyone with basic tool/machine knowledge can build whatever they want is nothing new. I'm not sure why it was posted in the manner it was... Every other sentence acts like people should be amazed or bewildered that this is "allowed." Last I checked, we lived in a free country, and building things at home is the backbone of innovation, and self sufficiency. .
Lately there has been quite a bit of passionate bleating about banning certain guns and/or magazines....as though this would do anything about our school shooters, which of course it wouldn't.

They say they don't want confiscation, but unless you rid the country of the hundreds of millions of existing firearms banning the future manufacture of certain types is a meaningless gesture. Of course the 'end game' is to disarm the populace but they know they cannot do this in one go or Civil War will break out and they'll lose...so 'death of a thousand cuts' is the chosen method and every time a well publicized shooting happens they break out the pre-written plans for demonstrations and all the banning bills get reintroduced.

CNN had producers and organizers at the last school shooting less than 24 hours after the smoke had cleared getting the kids coached up on what to say and who paid for their travel and lodging to attend the big demonstration? Yep.

You are very correct that anyone with a modicum of skill and intent can build dangerous things in a multitude of ways, and my intent of this post was to highlight the insanity of some people crying that we need to ban certain legal firearms and accessories while other equally dangerous objects can be obtained legally and without any regulations whatsoever.

The real problem with the school shooters is two-fold: first is the 'gun free zone' where any disturbed person intent on finding a soft target just knows that he/she will meet no resistance and can kill anyone they can find. Second is the continuing and increasing disbursement of SSRI type mind altering drugs being given to already mentally disturbed people. On their labels is a warning that they WILL create homicidal or suicidal thoughts and actions in a certain percentage of people taking them. This is well known, so the question is: are the people that these drugs actually help worth the side effect of a small number going off and committing mass murder? If yes...then we must defend against the small number of homicidal reactions. If the answer is no...then we must ban the issuance of these drugs and work to treat the mentally ill in other ways. Seems pretty simple to me....but trying to ban one tool that has been chosen from the dangerous toolbox chock full of other equally lethal options only a feel-good move and not going to help in the least.
 

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Unless they have a search or arrest warrant, what would they be doing "finding" anything? You don't have to hand anything over for inspection besides registration and insurance during a routine traffic stop. What you described sounds like a wrongful arrest lawsuit, and violation of constitutional rights lawsuit, neither of which would end well for the offending cop/police department.
Here in wisconsin it's legal to open carry, so lets say for some reason I have it in a holster on my hip and I get stopped while riding my bike. The firearm is in clear sight and the cop will ask to hold onto it during the traffic stop. You let the officer take possession of it and he notices it doesn't have a SN. I'm not certain that I'd like to try informing the officer of the legal loopholes that allow for it if he isn't already aware of them.
 

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Here in wisconsin it's legal to open carry, so lets say for some reason I have it in a holster on my hip and I get stopped while riding my bike. The firearm is in clear sight and the cop will ask to hold onto it during the traffic stop. You let the officer take possession of it and he notices it doesn't have a SN. I'm not certain that I'd like to try informing the officer of the legal loopholes that allow for it if he isn't already aware of them.
What law gives them the right to disarm you? The constitutional right doesn't end just because you're getting a traffic citation. Can they now discriminate against you for your skin color, or because you're from Asia, because you're getting a ticket?

I have read WI's statutes carefully many times, as I occasionally travel there. For the most part, very nice state with beautiful countryside. I don't recall anything about handing over lawfully owned weapons during a traffic stop. They can ask, but if they take it's an unlawful seizure as far as I can see. Personally, I don't see a cop asking you to disarm unless they're already pointing a gun at you, meaning you're under arrest. If you actually are a threat, e.g. a fugitive, just asking would be your cue to do something bad. At best, I could see them asking you to keep it holstered, and your hands off.
 

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Rob, thanks for clarifying. I figured your tone was more explanatory and sarcastic than actual bewilderment, I'm glad you responded. You make a lot of very good points.
 

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What law gives them the right to disarm you? The constitutional right doesn't end just because you're getting a traffic citation. Can they now discriminate against you for your skin color, or because you're from Asia, because you're getting a ticket?

I have read WI's statutes carefully many times, as I occasionally travel there. For the most part, very nice state with beautiful countryside. I don't recall anything about handing over lawfully owned weapons during a traffic stop. They can ask, but if they take it's an unlawful seizure as far as I can see. Personally, I don't see a cop asking you to disarm unless they're already pointing a gun at you, meaning you're under arrest. If you actually are a threat, e.g. a fugitive, just asking would be your cue to do something bad. At best, I could see them asking you to keep it holstered, and your hands off.
They will ask you to voluntarily hand over your weapon for the duration of the traffic stop for both their safety and yours. Seeing as to how your hand would be near your firearm if they were resting at your side an officer could believe you are reaching for your firearm. I'd rather not give an officer a reason to be uneasy or a reason to pull his firearm (mistakenly or not) and just hand it over for the stop.

Many people I do know that carry have had very good luck not getting tickets when doing this as they often end up sitting there just talking about guns and then are let go with a verbal warnings.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Frank...I agree, we don't want to cause any undue stress to the Police Person. Here in PA we can open carry, but it seems to cause more problems than it's worth to me. Some people are almost guaranteed to call 911 and freak out because 'HE HAS A GUUUUNNN!!'

I've heard 911 calls where the operator asks 'well, what's he doing with it?' and the snowflake on the other end is crying all upset that anyone would be walking around with a gun. Some of them have embellished the call and by the time the responding Officer/s get the word it's been upgraded to something that sounds dangerous and they get all excited...which is the LAST thing we want. There have been several killings of legal carriers by over-excited Cops freaking out, so carrying concealed is the best option IMHO.

The only interactions I've had with Police when armed have gone smoothly and peacefully because I immediately told them I was carrying and not many criminal types will tell them up front like that....and they appreciate it. Then by being polite and seemingly in control of ones self goes a long way to lowering the stress levels.

You earlier asked about the lack of serial number on the pistol and how this would go down? It's clearly never been numbered and there is a plate for one in the stock location that Glock uses, so it is easy to see that the number hadn't been obliterated or altered and I think with 'Poly80' on the grip it would be pretty easy to explain how it came to be. Wouldn't expect them to believe me, but now with computers in each car he or she would be able to double-check the facts and would have no problems with it.

Our Carry Permits here don't have any weapon restrictions or numbers like some do...so if I can conceal it...I can carry it. Have actually ventured out with a PLR-16 KelTec under my coat hanging from its' strap around my shoulder. That is Bad Ass.:) I only did it because I was going to visit some friends and they got a real kick out of what I was carrying. Everyone there was packing and we were about the safest group of people around...despite what the snowflakes seem to think that if someone is armed they'll shoot somebody for any tiny reason. Somehow I think they may be projecting of what THEY would do and many Liberal Types seem to also be violent...especially when you disagree with them. Of course, they often cannot defend their position in an argument so anger and violence is their only recourse once they've lost the debate.:)
 

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Yes. Both citizens and police can mistakenly (?) escalate an innocent situation into a deadly one based on mis-information and fear when a gun (even a toy gun) is involved. Michael Crawford and Tamir Rice are both dead because police jumped to wrong conclusions. Philando Castile had a permit to carry, and he's dead. if you choose to carry, you (ironically?) increase your odds of being shot by a cop. So, being as compliant and unthreatening as possible, even to the point of surrendering your firearm during the encounter, makes sense.
 

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Yes. Both citizens and police can mistakenly (?) escalate an innocent situation into a deadly one based on mis-information and fear when a gun (even a toy gun) is involved. Michael Crawford and Tamir Rice are both dead because police jumped to wrong conclusions. Philando Castile had a permit to carry, and he's dead. if you choose to carry, you (ironically?) increase your odds of being shot by a cop. So, being as compliant and unthreatening as possible, even to the point of surrendering your firearm during the encounter, makes sense.
You'd make a good SS officer.

It only makes sense of you're under arrest. Do you surrender your other constitutional rights to be compliant? This one is no different, and arguably even more important.

A right not exercised is a right you've given up.
 

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Like I hinted at earlier, a Sig Sauer P320's serial number is on the trigger module/chassis..thing, and is therefore inside the assembled firearm and not visible from the outside. Why should the Glock-in-a-box be different?
 

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Must be a lot of outlaws and stagecoach robbers in your states? ;D
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Must be a lot of outlaws and stagecoach robbers in your states? ;D

No....actually quite the opposite! Around here we're a very high percentage of concealed carriers and the goblins know this, so they're very choosy when picking their targets.

It's just amazing how potential thugs don't like it when you have a hand in a jacket pocket when they approach you...fearing that you might be holding a pistol. I've had this happen a couple times when out on walks with the girlfriend and they eyed us up by walked on by. The only real trick to this is to actually have a pistol in your hand and don't try faking it...that can be bad. They seem to have a 'sixth sense' about whether you're going to be able to shoot them or not. They may be criminals...but they're not stupid.;)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Like I hinted at earlier, a Sig Sauer P320's serial number is on the trigger module/chassis..thing, and is therefore inside the assembled firearm and not visible from the outside. Why should the Glock-in-a-box be different?
I believe there is a window in the grip that allows the frame number to be seen without disassembling the pistol. Also think it must be visible on a new pistol though some of the old guns might have had them under grips or whatnot.
 

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So this is unrelated to building firearms that don't have serial numbers, but I just saw a great documentary on amazon prime called Keep and Bear. It follows a Californian filmmaker, who had just moved to Idaho, along his path to being a gun owner. He starts out pro gun, but knowing literally nothing about firearms. It does a very good job portraying gun owners as normal everyday people and that guns are not a thing to be feared. It also does a great job at addressing and explaining some of the things gun owners have been saying for years during all these gun control debates with out making it political.

I recommend watching it and sharing with the people you know who are anti gun or who just don't know anything about guns.
 

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So this is unrelated to building firearms that don't have serial numbers, but I just saw a great documentary on amazon prime called Keep and Bear. It follows a Californian filmmaker, who had just moved to Idaho, along his path to being a gun owner. He starts out pro gun, but knowing literally nothing about firearms. It does a very good job portraying gun owners as normal everyday people and that guns are not a thing to be feared. It also does a great job at addressing and explaining some of the things gun owners have been saying for years during all these gun control debates with out making it political.

I recommend watching it and sharing with the people you know who are anti gun or who just don't know anything about guns.
Unfortunately fear is a hard thing to over come. Much easier to believe the lie that the other side is bad then to realize they are no different then you.
 
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