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honestly i don't even care if my words **** anyone off... this is unforgivable

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/25/pope-benedict-richard-williamson
He was actual until the student revolution in germany in the late 60`s the opposite.
He was open minded but the way the students opposed his believe in god turned him into a hardliner.
What he/they are doing in the moment is just insane and just shows again that the world would be a better place without all that bs.
 

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Ignorance is not very difficult to find. It is all around us.


What amazes me is how a religious man in such a high position can say such an insensitive, asinine thing.

What a schmuck.
 

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Only 200k-300k Jews died... the rest were on vacation, in Poland. They were invited. Punch was served. Check with Poland!

also Since when did 2-3 hundred thousand people become a number to scoff at? He had to know that alot of people were uneasy about his Hitler's youth past; has he gone senile?
 

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Maybe I didn't read everything correctly...not that I agree with the choice...but how is denying jews were gassed being anti jew. It isn't saying they weren't gassed so we should catch up...it's saying lots died but not by deliberate gassing. Failing to acknowledge reality isn't a hate crime in most parts of the world.


I am not catholic or jewish...could this be part of the anger some how?

It is not the first controversy for Benedict. His decision to allow freer use of the old Latin mass, including a Good Friday prayer for the conversion of Jews, caused widespread anger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Maybe I didn't read everything correctly...not that I agree with the choice...but how is denying jews were gassed being anti jew. It isn't saying they weren't gassed so we should catch up...it's saying lots died but not by deliberate gassing. Failing to acknowledge reality isn't a hate crime in most parts of the world.


I am not catholic or jewish...could this be part of the anger some how?

you see nothing wrong with saying 2 - 300,000 thousand people were murdered instead of over 6 million? You see nothing wrong with saying that the fact that these people were marched into rooms, stripped, gased and tossed into mass graves is merely a figment of someone's imagination?

How would you feel if your great grandmother was murdered and her body thrown into some hole in the ground atop thousands other bodies and some moron went around saying you made it all up?

How it is anti-jew???Would me saying, that black people were never enslaved and that they made it all up as an excuse, be racist?

seriously
 

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Would me saying, that black people were never enslaved and that they made it all up as an excuse, be racist?
No, it would just be ignorant.

edit; If you try to imply that they're doing it for a pity party(I didn't see him say that...he simply denied it), then yes, it could be considered prejudiced; however, if you simply deny it ever happened, and think they are misinformed, then no...it does not make you a jew-hater/racist/etc.
 

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you see nothing wrong with saying 2 - 300,000 thousand people were murdered instead of over 6 million? You see nothing wrong with saying that the fact that these people were marched into rooms, stripped, gased and tossed into mass graves is merely a figment of someone's imagination?
Yes seriously. How is denial a hate crime. He isn't going to or encouraging people kill jews to make up for the few that he feels didn't get killed. He is just denying facts. Denial isn't a hate crime or even racist for that matter.

No, it would just be ignorant.
Exactly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
ah yes semantics...
by the way, hate crime and racism are not interchangable terms either if you wanna get really specific.

The example of african americans was just that, an axample. I never said the they were being racist towards the jews. Jews aren't a race. It was an example of hate towards a group. And yes, denying the horrors of the Hollocaust is hate gainst the jews. And putting your support behind such a man is putting support behing his views. I don't care how the Pope masks his decision.

Sorry, I'm not going to describe either of these men as simply ingnorant. Its more than that. Much more.
 

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There is no hate in denying that millions were killed and instead believing 300k were killed. There is no hate in this statement unless you twist it to say "There were only 300k killed but I wish it was really 6 million like everyone else believes"

Jew can be a reference to the people of Hebrew and/or Isrealite descent. It can also be a reference to the religious Jewish people. Though the heritage and the religion are tightly related they are not the same thing and can be separate. You can have a Jewish person that is a Christian for instance.
 

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Richard Williamson is questioning the use of gas chambers in the camps. He is also questioning the numbers of Jews killed.

Does this make him a Holocaust denier?

While I think it is clear that gas chambers were used and that the numbers were likely as high as 6 million (no one really knows), it is still shocking to me is the level of hatred aimed at the Pope, Catholics and the Catholic Church by those who regard themselves as the unjustified targets of hate.

I dont think any matter, and that includes the Holocaust, should be beyond discussion. I think that Bishop Williamson should at least be allowed to make his case without being savaged ... even if he's wrong.

The idea that certain subjects are off limits to any further inquiry should be rejected no matter the subject.

There are many Holocaust issues which should be re-examined such as the fact that 11,000,000 persons died in the Holocaust, yet, we only ever talk about (or care about .. or give reparations too) Jews.

Half the 6 million Poles killed were Catholic or Christian.

20,000,000 million Russians were killed ... does their suffering not count?

10,000,000 million Germans, were killed ... mostly civilians, woman and children.

So why is it, that when we discuss WWII, there are never any victims besides the Jews? Why is their suffering considered worse than everyone else's.

Shouldn't the Gypsies, the Homosexuals, the mentally ill and the many, many others be right up there with their hands out for reparations and sympathy?

What happened to the Jews was horrific. But they were not the only ones it happened too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
There is no hate in denying that millions were killed and instead believing 300k were killed. There is no hate in this statement unless you twist it to say "There were only 300k killed but I wish it was really 6 million like everyone else believes"

Ok look, if I go up to a person in the street and say
"hey isn't it terrible that 6 million jews were killed in the holocaust?"
he then responds
"what's a holocaust?"
then yes he is simply ignorant.

If i go go up to someone and ask the same question and the response is:
"There weren't six million people killed. Its a lie the Jews made up. It was only a few hundred thousand. The Jews are lying"
Then I'm sorry but that is not ignorance.

Not knowing something and admitting that you are not educated enough about the matter is different from spreading lies about a group of people, accusing them of making up such a terrible thing. And that is a hateful act.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Richard Williamson is questioning the use of gas chambers in the camps. He is also questioning the numbers of Jews killed.

Does this make him a Holocaust denier?

While I think it is clear that gas chambers were used and that the numbers were likely as high as 6 million (no one really knows), it is still shocking to me is the level of hatred aimed at the Pope, Catholics and the Catholic Church by those who regard themselves as the unjustified targets of hate.

I dont think any matter, and that includes the Holocaust, should be beyond discussion. I think that Bishop Williamson should at least be allowed to make his case without being savaged ... even if he's wrong.

The idea that certain subjects are off limits to any further inquiry should be rejected no matter the subject.

There are many Holocaust issues which should be re-examined such as the fact that 11,000,000 persons died in the Holocaust, yet, we only ever talk about (or care about .. or give reparations too) Jews.

Half the 6 million Poles killed were Catholic or Christian.

20,000,000 million Russians were killed ... does their suffering not count?

10,000,000 million Germans, were killed ... mostly civilians, woman and children.

So why is it, that when we discuss WWII, there are never any victims besides the Jews? Why is their suffering considered worse than everyone else's.

Shouldn't the Gypsies, the Homosexuals, the mentally ill and the many, many others be right up there with their hands out for reparations and sympathy?

What happened to the Jews was horrific. But they were not the only ones it happened too.
I never said he was a denier, I clearly stated that he is stating an incorrect number of victims.

The line "it is still shocking to me is the level of hatred aimed at the Pope, Catholics and the Catholic Church by those who regard themselves as the unjustified targets of hate." makes no sense. Show me one time where a high profile person of Jewish faith has spoken out against the Pope, The Church or Catholics. In fact I'm not targeting the Church or Catholics at all... hell, I 'm dating a Catholic. But Williamson is a piece of $hit and so is the Pope for this action. I'm condemning the actions of two men, not the entire Church and its followers. Believe me, among my friends more Catholics are outraged by this then any other group. My Jewish friends, for the most part just said "Who care, its the Pope. No one cares what the Pope says or does." I happen to disagree, but whatever...

As far as other people that died in the war... of course their death and suffering are important. And only those who are in fact ignorant or hateful put varying values on the life that was lost. But that's not what the man is attacking. Had he said, something like "What's the big deal? only a few blacks and gays were killed" I would have been equally mad. So again that has no bearing on this specific conversation whatsoever.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Let me put up another scenario:

Your kid comes home and goes
"Hey there is a boy in my class who's great grandfather was a German soldier in WWII. And while discussing the war, he said that his grandfather claimed that Americans are a bunch of liars. The WWII Memorial is pure BS because only a couple hundred of those pussies died in the war. In fact he also said that only like 50 died in the Vietnam war and Americans made up the rest to seem heroic or gather pity"

Somehow I doubt you would be as calm about that.
 

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Even saying its a Jew lie isn't hateful. Ignorants in the same way as your other "I didn't know it happened statement ". Its only hateful if he is thinking "those **** Jews perpetrating lies to scam the world! Those *******s!"Do you have some statement in mind that he made? Perhaps the actual words will reveal what you are looking to show.
 
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