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Napkin, what Andy is trying to describe is that there are two dimensions to this problem.

Dimension 1 is explained very well with the linkage sketches. It is the relationship of each part with respect to each other throughout the entire range of motion.

Dimension 2 is the force diagrams, the forces will change as the linkage goes through its range.

Next time, I would hesitate to call :bs: on his explanations just because you do not understand it.

This is how I would explain it.

Take your wrist.
Put it straight with your forearm.
Try to bend it.
It takes a lot of force to bend it ... right?

Take your wrist and bring it in as much as it will bend.
Now notice how little force it takes to move that wrist to its fully locked position.

Dimensional relationships look identical for range of motion ... right?

Visualizing the forces on the other hand (pun is fully engaged) cannot be seen, they can only be felt.

That is the hard part of visualizing with Andy's diagram.
One can start "seeing" these forces when you break them down in x-y vectors.
That is where the study of dynamics and a little bit of kinematics come into the equation.

Here are the laymans terms for these areas of study:

Statics = chit don't move - bridges, framing, trusses and all that stuff using action-reaction and torque to measure forces.

Dynamics = chit moves - introducing the different frictions, forces that change according to conditions

Kinematics = chit moves in all kinds of directions - regardless of what is causing it to move. You just take the part that is under focus and analyze from there. In this case we have two rigid bodies, the wheel swingarm assembly and the frame. The two make a system joined by mechanical joints.

To measure, you need dimensional relationships.
From there, you can now measure forces by using vector coordinates or cartesian coordinates. For me, the cartesian coordinates made things a lot simpler cause it broke the forces down into x-y coordinates and now it becomes easier to visualize.
 
Next time, I would hesitate to call :bs: on his explanation just because you do not understand it.
do you understand that is impossible to compress shock spring 1 inch using two different pressures?
if pressure is different spring will compress different.
now add linkage to system and try to figure what it does.
 
Not pressure ... FORCE

FORCE = MAGNITUDE and DIRECTION

PRESSURE = force per unit area applied to an object that is measured at right angle to the surface.

Very important.

Each link in that linkage applies FORCE in varying degrees in the x-axis direction and the y-axis direction.

To make it even harder to visualize is that in each different position of that linkage arrangement, the FORCES will change. (it will become easier to move in the x-direction and harder to move in the y-direction.) This will always equal unity cause it is a closed system.

Can I at least get you to agree if you use your wrist and forearm in the straight position, you can apply much more FORCE to the shock absorber when you flex your forearm muscles?

Can you then agree if your wrist is bent either up or down in its extreme end of range of motion that you will apply very little FORCE to the shock absorber?

Can you see or feel that in your head?

The shock absorber is NOT the issue here ... it is the linkage that tranlate different forces to the shock absorber at different locations in the range of motion.

Lets exaggerate here to clarify this point.

I have an eight foot two by four in my hand ... I can grab it in the middle, in the ends and every point in between.

When the two by four is grasped in the middle ... and my wrist is in a neutral centered position, I can move that piece of wood very easily. My muscles in my forearm are NOT working very hard.

Now take that two by four and grasp it at the end, my forearm muscles are now quivering with effort to just hold it in place. If I bend my wrist, I can no longer sustain the forces needed to support that two by four.

I changed the length of the dog bone ... the system now becomes more prone to collapse because one changed its parameters to a point that can no longer be sustained by the system.

That, my friend, is as crude as I can make it to help you see that there are several very important concepts you are not looking at in this equation.
 
Unless you guys are arguing that the forces of friction in the bushings of this system are relevant and there is a substantial amount of work dissipated as heat, I think Napkin is right on this.
 
currently,
if there is force there it has to show up somewhere.either at shock movement or wheel movement.or something is bending.
tcl,friction is small,not a factor.I joked with Andy about it.tried to give him many clues but he does not get it.or I don't get it :)
 
talking about bending(flexing),there is such thing.search for Tularis patent on his rear suspension.or look at what formula 1 cars use.
 
You can't even comprehend the most basic explanation and you want to throw a patent in that has absolutely no validity in this discussion. ::)

I give up ... willful ignorance cannot be swayed.
A closed mind is like a broken parachute.

Good luck sir ... I wish you well.

:p
 
currently,
if there is force there it has to show up somewhere.either at shock movement or wheel movement.or something is bending.
tcl,friction is small,not a factor.I joked with Andy about it.tried to give him many clues but he does not get it.or I don't get it :)
I know... my point was that friction does not matter but that is the only place the mystery unaccounted for work could go. I think he's looking at the changing leverage around the pivot but the pivot is not doing any appreciable work in the system.
 
I know... my point was that friction does not matter but that is the only place the mystery unaccounted for work could go. I think he's looking at the changing leverage around the pivot but the pivot is not doing any appreciable work in the system.
correct.
 
Do you want me to change your post count to 600,000 ...

Will that make you any smarter?

All that is a number in a field that can be changed.
Post count is NOT the issue here.
 
PM sent :angry4:
 
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