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And it will just increase the rate at which they are stolen, and cause more violence here in the US.

You are also missing the point that the law did not deter them from committing the crime. Laws do not deter those who wish to break them.
For every person willing to spend time and money converting an AR-15 to fire fully automatic and then rob a bank in Los Angeles and THEN have a 3000 round shootout with police to the death, there are 10,000 other people unwilling to do so.

Laws deter many people. You cannot use the exception to argue against the rule.
 

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Laws are meant to influence the greatest number of people. They are not meant to be tailored to every possible way that they could be broken or circumvented assuming the rate with which that method of circumventing the law is not often used.

Gun control is meant to prevent crime. It would be paradoxical to make laws affecting millions of people because of literally one or two mentally ill murderers.
Then why do you propose a law that is tailored to those select few, but prevents millions from owning a semi auto rifle?
 

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For every person willing to spend time and money converting an AR-15 to fire fully automatic and then rob a bank in Los Angeles and THEN have a 3000 round shootout with police to the death, there are 10,000 other people unwilling to do so.

Laws deter many people. You cannot use the exception to argue against the rule.
You underestimate the amount of law abiding gun owners. Coming from someone who's arguments are so often based on hard numbers, I find it surprising that you would just make up statistics.
 

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Then why do you propose a law that is tailored to those select few, but prevents millions from owning a semi auto rifle?
Because it's not a select few. 69% of all firearms recovered in Mexico and traced by the ATF are from the United States.

That's almost 15,000 a year. Nearly half of those recovered were rifles. Rifles account for more of the weapons than any other category. And the proportion of traced weapons being rifles is increasing annually.

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/trace-data/international/2007-2011-Mexico-trace-data.pdf
 

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You underestimate the amount of law abiding gun owners. Coming from someone who's arguments are so often based on hard numbers, I find it surprising that you would just make up statistics.
I'm using hyperbole. I cannot be sure that it's 1 in 10,000.

But you are attempting to argue the ineffectiveness of law in general. Which seems absurd. The effectiveness of laws can be seen in the fact that civil society does not fall to pieces.
 

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Because it's not a select few. 69% of all firearms recovered in Mexico and traced by the ATF are from the United States.

That's almost 15,000 a year. Nearly half of those recovered were rifles. Rifles account for more of the weapons than any other category. And the proportion of traced weapons being rifles is increasing annually.

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/trace-data/international/2007-2011-Mexico-trace-data.pdf
What about those that aren't able to be traced? I would wager that there are many more that cannot be traced and therefore no included in that statistic.



Like I said. Enforce the laws already in place instead of making new ones and punishing the law abiding citizens that choose to spend their money on hunting and shooting.

Stopping illegal activity is fine. But making more activities illegal won't fix anything.
 

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I'm using hyperbole. I cannot be sure that it's 1 in 10,000.

But you are attempting to argue the ineffectiveness of law in general. Which seems absurd. The effectiveness of laws can be seen in the fact that civil society does not fall to pieces.
I'm arguing the effectiveness of one, imaginary law.
 

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What about those that aren't able to be traced? I would wager that there are many more that cannot be traced and therefore no included in that statistic.



Like I said. Enforce the laws already in place instead of making new ones and punishing the law abiding citizens that choose to spend their money on hunting and shooting.

Stopping illegal activity is fine. But making more activities illegal won't fix anything.
Proportionality aside, you cannot argue that 8000 weapons is insignificant.
 

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Proportionality aside, you cannot argue that 8000 weapons is insignificant.
Of course. But also, Isn't it Mexico's job to prevent the illegal importation of arms into their country? Why does the U.S. have to sacrifice one of its core values because of the activity in another country. Not saying that the US shouldn't prevent exportation. Just making the point that it is a two way street.
 

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For every person willing to spend time and money converting an AR-15 to fire fully automatic and then rob a bank in Los Angeles and THEN have a 3000 round shootout with police to the death, there are 10,000 other people unwilling to do so.

Laws deter many people. You cannot use the exception to argue against the rule.
there are ways, for those so inclined to convert a semi auto into a full auto in less than a day and under $25 worth of parts, and if this method exists you can be sure the law breakers know how to do it.

but to give you a fair chance and not pick on you just because you have a view opposed to mine which i believe is your right what restrictions, laws, etc do you support/ suggest that would help bring down gun violence? and what evidence non-bias, peer reviewed, scientific journal type stuff can you find to support your views, not just maybe this would work. ill be honest i love my gun, but i love my life more. so tell me what do you suggest that allows me to keep my gun AND not have to worry about getting shot up in some random act of fate?
 

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I, ofr one would not trust statstics provided by the US Gov., especially in a case they are likely to be covering up info...

so, spoons make people fat, just like rifles make them criminals?
 

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I, ofr one would not trust statstics provided by the US Gov., especially in a case they are likely to be covering up info...

so, spoons make people fat, just like rifles make them criminals?
Correlation does not equal causation. I am for stricter gun control but I dont think guns should be banned. Enforce registration laws and require regular training to own a gun. Laws do not prevent criminals from doing anything. They only prevent law abiding citizens from doing things and personally, if someone shows up with a gun, I want to be able to protect myself. I am purchasing a handgun very soon with the hopes I will never need it for more than target practice.
 

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Thing about gun control is that it doesn't address the problem. The gun isn't the problem, it is the person behind the gun that is. It is like having an oil leak on your SV and your solution is to just add more oil and hope it stops the leak. But we all know that the leak will still happen. Making guns harder to obtain doesn't address the mind set that those who will do such crimes have. In the end they will still do their crimes regardless if they obtain the weapons legally, illegally or use something else.

Our effort is much better in finding these people before they do these acts rather then wasting time with gun control that will do nothing to prevent these acts.
 

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Yes.


And similarly, removal of guns would lead to increased crime. When there is more incentive to commit a crime (you know the victim won't be armed), more crimes will be committed.
This logic implies that the current presence of guns has reduced crime, which I don't believe. I don't believe any current criminal has considered the possibility that the member of the public will have a gun, and decided not to commit a crime at all. Perhaps they found a different target for their crime, but to say that crime will rise is not realistic.

We're all so quick to say that criminals will find ways to get guns no matter what (which I believe is correct), so why are we not so quick to say that current criminals will commit their crimes no matter what (including the possibility that another citizen will have a gun).
 

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Oops...
Parentheticals are added so you don't have to read the whole article.

Another witness said the shooter, a man known as Spidey, started shooting at someone playing basketball. The basketball player shot back, hitting the (4-year old) child, (and hitting him in the head, killinghim) identified early Monday morning as Lloyd Morgan.
A 31-year-old man went to St. Barnabas Hospital with a gunshot wound to his arm. Both men were expected to survive




Thank goodness for this well intentioned preventer of crime for being armed, otherwise this may have been a lot worse. This is what bothers me about everybody carrying around guns. It's bad enough that the criminals have them. Now i gotta worry about two or three people spraying lead if something happens.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
One practical problem with guns is that they have the potential to turn misunderstandings into killings all too easily. (The Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin scenarios or numerous road rage shootings)

Another is that people who actually represent a threat to others (the Aurora shooter, any number of campus/post office/McDonalds shooters, Gabrielle Giffords' assailant) have easy access to guns.

It seems to me that these two problems exist separately and distinctly from whether the constitutionally protected right to bear arms is a viable idea for the 21st century. Does anyone have suggestions about measures to ameliorate these two problems?
 

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Discussion Starter #60
So this thread is not for a group buy?
We could go that route. I'm sure SVRider could easily come up with a consensus on which firearm we should all have. Although there will always be a vocal dissent from the bobber crowd.
 
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