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Opinions on Ducati ST4s

15K views 41 replies 17 participants last post by  NONo443 
#1 ·
I know this is not a Ducati form, but I respect this community's opinions on all things moto, so I thought I'd ask for opinions.

Stumbled across a very nice Ducati ST4s at a used motorcycle dealer yesterday. It's a 2003 with only 9,300 miles on it, chrome yellow with color-matched Ducati Performance saddlebags and top case, Ducati Performance carbon fiber rear wheel hugger, and Laminar Lip on the stock windscreen. The rest looks to be stock. It is a non-ABS model. Not a mark or scratch anywhere on the bike. According to the dealer, there is nothing wrong with the bike; the one prior owner had to leave the country and couldn't take the bike. (A common story given with used motorcycles in Miami -- whether true or not.)

I'm intrigued. I've been thinking about getting a more sport-oriented bike to add to the current fleet, but I also want something that can travel, as I have to ride at least a few hours to get to any decent roads from where I live. This ticks those boxes, plus a few other desires: exotic; Italian; nice-looking; v-twin.

It's basically a 996 Superbike engine in sport-tourer clothes, with Showa titanium-nitride forks, Ohlins shock, 5.5 gal. fuel tank, and hard bags.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_ST4s



My concerns are: reliability; maintenance costs; and price (plus whatever else others may point out to me).

Reliability: I would use this bike for trips to the twisties, which means at least 1,500 miles round trip. Obviously, I would prefer a bike that won't leave me stranded far from home and/or any dealers.

Maintenance costs: I have no firm numbers what it costs to maintain the water-cooled 4V Desmoquattro engine, but I'd guess it's not cheap. The dealer did not know what the valve check or timing belt change interval was, or if it had been done by the prior owner. IIRC, service is every 6,000 miles on the early 2000-era bikes. Does anyone have any idea what a valve adjust and belt replacement costs for one of these? Is this something a passably competent (if slow) wrench like myself could tackle?

Price: Dealer wants his cut, of course. The price as marked is $6,350. Used examples seem to be going for closer to $5K, although generally not with these few miles and this nice of condition.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.
 
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#2 ·
I own a 2006 ST3 and you should check out Ducati.ms and then the sport touring forum. Im pretty sure they even have a potential buyers thread. The bikes are generally reliable, but the aftermarket is slim and expensive. I love my ST3, but if your looking for a platform to tinker with its not a great start. I had a great time building up the SV, but when looking to do simple mods like a new exhaust on the ST3 its extremely expensive with limited choices. Even parts are hard to come by sometimes (my lower fairing has a hairline crack and ebay NOS left or right fairing halfs run $400) but there is some part crossover between the ST2, ST3 and ST4.

As far as maintenance Im pretty sure the ST4 is close to the ST3 (even though the ST4 is older) and that means 7500 mile service intervals. That service is pretty expensive as it is valve adjustment and runs north of $500 at the dealer. Other than that its normal stuff like chain adjustment.
 
#3 ·
I recently purchased a ST2; the ST4 is basically the same thing, just with a 4-valve motor instead of a 2-valve. (And the ST4s is basically just a tweaked ST4.)

Maintenance on 4-valves costs more, because there are twice as many valves. Might also be trickier dealing with 2 valves under each inspection cover - I'm not sure, as my only experience with that side of Ducati is with my 2-valve ST. Intervals are only 6000 miles, but from what I've read, after 12k it should be pretty worn-in and not really need adjustment much. Belts are generally recommended to be replaced every 10k-12k or so. I looked up replacements, and they run about $70 for the pair. If you pay somebody to do everything, it is likely to get very expensive very quickly.

They are supposed to be fairly reliable - at least as far as Italian motor vehicles are concerned. Biggest problem I've read about is electrics, and particularly R/Rs - in that one respect, not much different than the R/R issues that first-gen SVs can experience. Very early models - like mine - can have issues with the alternator/generator, but the later models changed the rotor to produce more electrical power and be more reliable.

Price-wise... $5 sounds about right. Under $6k would probably be good. Especially since it has the matching bags. I got my ST2 for $2900 (sticker was $3500), but it didn't have the bags. (I managed to place an order for some new-old-stock bags for $650+S&H, so I will be set there.)

Just remember that lots of maintenance has always been - and will always be - a big part of Ducati ownership. As I like to wrench on things all the time, that was actually something of a plus for me in deciding to get the ST2 - now I don't have to buy project bikes to work on! :p

ETA : The one other common criticism is the headlight. An aftermarket replacement is available - which is supposedly amazing - but it is not cheap. I have not yet had the Duc out at night to comment on its headlight capabilities.

Also, assuming that is a photo of the actual bike you are looking at - how does that Sargent seat feel? I am considering ordering one, based on how much I like the Sargent on my SV.
 
#5 ·
Yeah, I'm most curious about the Sargent, though.

But it appears that the OP's photo has been changed?? There was a very large photo that very clearly had a Sargent seat on it, now it's a lower-res photo that looks to have the stock seat.
 
#6 ·
On of the things to remember when buying an older classic/exotic/semi-exotic is that even though your entry price is low, all repair costs are based on the expensive, new MSRP. I know, 10 years is not really "old", but in your mind, you are buying a $6k bike, but everytime you take it to the shop or buy parts, it is a $15-20k bike.

If you are okay with that, you should be fine. Premium brands carry premium pricetags. Only you can decide if the premium rewards are worth it for you.

Price seems close - kbb retail here is $5915, calculated on 30k miles. If you can get an FSM and do the service yourself, mainenance may be reasonable. You'd need to check dedicated forums for known or common issues. The brief browsing I did indicates that it is a good bike, but needs the owner to stay on top of things. Dealer maintenance is reported as expensive.
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the replies so far.

I originally posted a stock photo from the internet; I replaced it with a photo of the actual bike for sale. It has the stock seat. Sorry for the confusion. I've heard the either the Corbin or the Sargent are worthwhile upgrades, as are bar risers or Helibars. If anyone has an opinion on the ergonomics, please share.

I have heard that the one to get is the ST3, but I have no idea why. Anyone?

I'd really like to get a handle on maintenance costs. That looks to be what this will come down to. If anyone has experience in the care and feeding of 4V Ducs, please let me know.
 
#9 ·
4 valve ducs are a pain in the ass. (But then again, so are 2 valve ducs, they're just aless expensive pain in the ass) If you want a fun sport tourer, all of the ST's are a nice bike. If you want something that you can "just ride", you shouldn't be looking at ducs. You'll spend money on belts, and valve checks, and valve adjustments, and...and...and.

I finally got the last of the ducati lust out of me when my beloved 750ss needed a second O-ring replaced underneath the back cylinder, and I said the heck with it and sold it rather than tear it down again.

The only cure for Ducati lust is to own one. Personally, in this case, if you have to have one, I'd go hunting for an older 2 valver. Simpler to work on, and cheaper to buy.
If you want a reliable sport tourer, go hunting for a triumph sprint. Similar money, similar rideability, another great exhaust note, but more reliable and less maintenance.
 
#10 ·
Something about the way that Duc is set up just doesn't gel with me.. I've liked most of the Ducs I see in person, but with that windscreen setup, its combined seat, and all the color in those hard bags playing off the fairings.. it just almost has a tinge of "scooter" look about it. Obviously, it's far from it, and a very nice bike if all those features are useful to you!
 
#15 ·
Yea I thought it looked like a scooter too. Not my cup of tea but to each their own.
The photo does not do the bike justice. Bad lighting, bad angle, distortion....

A slightly better picture of the bike:

 
#12 ·
Valve adjustment/check recommended every 6000 miles.
Timing belts recommended to be changed every 12k miles or 2 years, whichever is first
The ST4 heads as Testa Basso and factory gates are about $170 a pair
Dealer valve adjust/timing belt change will typically run $800+
The Desmoquattro has a tendancy for flaking chrome on the rockers. Stock rockers are NOT recommended to skip to 12k checks because some of these rockers go bad quickly.
The "S" is the one to get because it has the light-weight/five-spoke wheels, aluminum swingarm, Showa TiN forks, and Ohlins rear shock
Comfort is fine on the ST bikes once you get used to them, I did a SS1000 on mine
If you opt to do your own maintenance, it is not rocket science, but the Desmoquattros require pulling the cams to check the closer rocker chrome surfaces. I am not sure with the ST4, but the 748/916/996 are a PITA to get to the vertical exhaust for checking the valves if you have large hands.

In general, the ST4s is fairly known for their reliability, comfort, and handling ability. I heard of a very few having crank bearing failure issues, but I think it was the '02 model that I read about. The electronics and charging system (regulator/stator) are fine on the ST4s.

I can't think of much else noteworthy.

As for the scooter look, just remove and sell the rear tour pack for a few hundred bucks and sell the tall windshield for about $50 and replace it with a regular or shorter-than-stock windshield. My wife's ST2 came with tall shield, bar risers, and the trunk, and we sold all of the "touring" items and wound up with a steal of a deal on the bike....





This is what they look like without the panniers on them (and a rear seat cowl - if you can find one)....

 
#13 ·
It's a great bike and reliability is excellent as long as you stick to the factory recommended service intervals. I know a number of people who own Ducati motorcycles and do their own maintenance on them putting 50-60,000 miles on them easily.

Here's a thought, call a couple of your closest Ducati dealers and ask them how much for a valve adjustment and belt change. Those are pretty much the only major services on the bike and the parts themselves aren't that expensive. Probably around $150 for the belts for that motor and a few bucks for a shim kit and gaskets.

I'd invest in the tools and a service manual and start working on it yourself.
 
#20 ·
As to discussions of handlebars/risers/etc : I'm planning on getting a LSL handlebar kit to replace the stockers on my ST2. If you search some older threads on the Ducati boards, you can find that one of the guys there has some pics hosted of his ST with the LSL kit.




Here's a thought, call a couple of your closest Ducati dealers and ask them how much for a valve adjustment and belt change. Those are pretty much the only major services on the bike and the parts themselves aren't that expensive. Probably around $150 for the belts for that motor and a few bucks for a shim kit and gaskets.

I'd invest in the tools and a service manual and start working on it yourself.
FYI, some costs at the dealer up here:

- 7500 mile service package $630
- 12000 mile service package $900
- 18000 mile service package $540
- 24000 mile service package $900
- 4V Ducati Valve adjustment (only; no other service) $270

I looked these up for humor the other day. I don't have dealers touch any of my bikes.

I'm in the middle of checking/adjusting the valves on my ST2. (Bought it with 6k already on it and no service history, so I wanted to check soon... but just had to get a week of riding it out of the way first :) )

It's not terribly difficult, but I wish I would've ordered everything from the start - especially a full shim kit. I didn't want to pay the price ($300, but it is 36 shims), but now find that it would be well worth it to be able to swap everything and recheck immediately. Especially as the closers are a huge pain in the ass to deal with. The openers are pretty easy, actually. It's the closers that suck.

Things are pretty accessible, though again I've run into a case of trying to half-ass things. Would be easier to strip even more off the bike (mainly tank and airbox) in the first place than try to reach in everywhere. Less time overall, too. Finally gave in and found things to be much easier. I'm waiting on a shim kit to arrive now, as dicking around with one of the closers was enough for me. I don't really want to pull them on and off more than I have to right now. This will just make things easier in the long run. Also have ordered a couple of other tools that should help out. The way I see it, in 2 service intervals, all of it will have more than paid for itself. If I buy another 2V Duc (which I'm thinking I might, down the road), then they are really a great investment to make right now.

Oh, and of course my experience is with my 2V ST2, not the 4V ST4s. You get twice the everything there!




I for one am very much pleased with my Ducati purchase. In many ways, their higher need for maintenance - though maintenance one can easily do yourself, given the tools and instruction - fits my personality. Now I don't have to have a separate project bike to wrench on, at least to fill the periodic need, of course. The character of the ST2 is also rather fitting.
 
#14 ·
Where's CoryUT when you need him? Cory had an '02 S4S. I don't know how many miles he had on it, but I can tell you it was not what you'd call reliable. Sometimes it wouldn't start. Then it started cutting out on rides. Then it out and out stranded him. Then it sat around for months while he replaced just about every consumable you could think of with no joy. I'm not sure what was wrong with it. He bought a VFR800, then got it running a few months later and sold it.

You may try shooting him a PM to see if he'll respond. I haven't talked to him for a while.
 
#21 ·
Last year for a few months, I would run across this guy on a red ST4 nearly every day, either on the highway in the early morning heading in to work, or on the way home the few days a week where I slabbed it home after work.
I followed him quite a few miles, and always noticed that the right rear hard bag and exhaust were shaking like crazy. If I ever would have seen him stopped I would have said something. It was that bad. I figured it may have been a broken rear rack, or maybe the exhaust/rack mount...whatever, but it was noticeable.

Just thought I'd throw that in there
 
#23 ·
I've put nearly 20,000 miles on my ST4s (it has 34,000 total). I am not a seasoned mechanic by any stretch of the imagination and I managed to do a valve adjustment over the winter and in the process replaced three bad opening rocker arms. It would have cost me a fortune at a dealership, but parts are easy to come by as is the know how to do the work yourself. Ducati.ms has extensive write ups on belt changes, valve jobs, and other maintenance. It's not rocket science and if you do it yourself, it's not really expensive either.

I sold the Helibars and returned to the stock bars for a more natural (to me) riding position. I dumped the raised wind screen for the stocker as well. It also came with a Corbin seat, but I use the stock seat unless my wife is on the back. I can do 500 mile days without issue, probably more if I had time to take a nice long trip. :)

Works good at the track too, but if you want a 'real' Ducati Superbike from that era, get a 996. It's lighter, has more aggressive ergos, a stiffer frame, and will handle better.
 
#25 ·
Forums are a great resource to let you know how to properly perform maintenance. It's not difficult. Belts can be purchased cheap. There's cheap shims out there. Rocker arms are cheap. No need to worry about belt tension, timing, etc. Anyone can do it.



Guess what isn't cheap. ;D

For reference, this is what's left after a customer said he leanred how to do his own valve adjustment on a forum from an "experienced professional". He knows this because they poster "had over 200 posts". He followed everything step by step.
 
#26 ·
Forums are a great resource to let you know how to properly perform maintenance. It's not difficult. Belts can be purchased cheap. There's cheap shims out there. Rocker arms are cheap. No need to worry about belt tension, timing, etc. Anyone can do it.


Guess what isn't cheap. ;D

For reference, this is what's left after a customer said he leanred how to do his own valve adjustment on a forum from an "experienced professional". He knows this because they poster "had over 200 posts". He followed everything step by step.
Some people shouldn't wrench their own bikes. Other people don't have a problem with it. What's with the scare tactics anyway? I'm guessing a lot of the folks on this forum do their own work. You just have to take it one step at a time and study the system until you understand it. It helps to have multiple manuals for reference. With the money I've saved on shop time, I'll be able to buy another motorcycle next year, if I want. Instead I'll use that money for track days AND I'll be certain the work is done right because I've taken the time to learn how and do it myself.

Bottom line, if you're mechanically inclined and have the time, you're better off doing it yourself. It doesn't matter what brand of bike you ride. My SV doesn't go to the dealer either.
 
#32 ·
I've found a 2007 ST3 that a local dealer took in on trade and has been sitting on for about 6 months. They had it listed for 6500$ when they first put it on the floor but now have it listed at 4K$. I assume it's because they have had it for so long and just want it gone. It has 32k miles on it and appears to be in great shape. It kinda worries me why they can't sell it but I'm going to go test ride it this afternoon if I can and may just trade the SV in on it. Dunno. We'll see. I'll post up a pic or two this afternoon when I see/ride it. :vroom:
 
#33 ·
Assuming the bike is solid, that's a steal..... If you can swing it, keep the SV too. I have one of each and I really appreciate the way the two bikes compliment each other. Solid, fast, composed, but heavier on the one side and light, quick, and agile on the other.

When's winter over? I wanna ride.
 
#34 ·
I saw the bike in person this afternoon. Overall it is in good shape. The reason that the price dropped like it did and probably why they have been stuck with the bike is there is a bit of damage on it. The dealer puts their used inventory out in front of the shop to display to passers by. Apparently a while back, a mother let her small kids climb around on some of the bikes and they knocked a few over including the ST3. The ST3 was the first one to fall which caused 4 other bikes to domino with it. The mother then grabbed her kids and hauled a$$ outta there asap. Here is some pics of the damage:






Chain is DIIIRRRRTTYY!! and the sprocket cover got damaged in the mayhem as well

They have had the bike so long that they have been letting their techs and sales people drive it around on weekends and evenings. I didn't have a good feeling about that at all(thar be squids in dem dar garages and sales floors!). Not for a bike that I would buy for myself. Plus they couldn't show what if any maintenance had been done for the life of the bike which isn't really suprising considering that it was a trade in. I didn't ask to test ride it because of the broken throttle tube housing.
 
#37 ·
They put a damaged bike out on the line? And let their techs/sales employes flog it around? :eek:

Yeah... no.
When the parts guy told me that, I about shat myself. It was a big NO right then and there.

After you're done replacing the damaged parts and having the major service interval performed, you're back up to that original $6,500 asking price. Maybe they will do all of that work for less (say, $1,000), but even then... ? Unless you have to have it, I'd say, pass.
I don't HAVE to have it. I knew the deal had to be too good to be true but I had to check it out after seeing it online. I bought my SV new from this dealer's sister store in another town and had a great experience. This particular Duc OTOH is not for me. I'd much rather have a Hypermotard or Superbike if I was going to buy a Ducati anyway. I'd love a new Multi, but they will be out of my price-range for a while.
 
#36 ·
After you're done replacing the damaged parts and having the major service interval performed, you're back up to that original $6,500 asking price. Maybe they will do all of that work for less (say, $1,000), but even then... ? Unless you have to have it, I'd say, pass.
 
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