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FYI the two sentences above are contradictory.
No they aren't. He said leathers have superior abrasion protection to textiles. He then said some textiles have adequate abrasion protection.

You've already stated that all quality leathers offer the best abrasion protection; Craig agreed with you. Craig then said that there are textiles that offer abrasion protection that is less than or equal to some leathers, and that abrasion protection on those textiles is more than adequate for many crashes. He never said that leathers offered inadequate abrasion protection which would have made the sentence illogical.

Those aren't contradictory; if anything they're complimentary in the context of this thread.
 

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Datech; got it. In logic, the first statement is 1 > 2, second is 2 = 3. The second statement omits leather (1) all together and refers to a standard of "adequate abrasion protection" (3). It was my error to state that there is a contradiction in logic as there isn't, and I should have recognized it since I took logic in college and did well in it (many years ago though)

Anyway, now I have to take my tire warmers off my bike and put my gear on so I can ride to work ;)
 

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Since my daily SV is really my race SV, which has Pirelli SC2 medium compound DOT race tires, tire warmers are probably not an absolute necessity but I like to be safe, because my worst injuries sustained from a crash happened on cold race take-offs not more than 100 feet out of my driveway:

One of my past bikes was a full race TL1000R, which had Dunlop race take-offs mounted. I high-sided out of the second corner from my house and permanently separated my acromio-clavicular joint (collar bone meets shoulder blade). I had to sit with my arm in a sling or on a pillow for more than a month or my shoulder would literally fall out of the socket, followed by a month of physical therapy to regain the use of the shoulder. I told myself I would never again mess with race tires on the street, but my Pirelli rep doesn't get into town until Saturday so I have to run race tires on the street for this week. This Saturday I will be putting new Diablo Rosso Corsa on which won't really need the warmers before I ride. It is currently about 50 degrees in the morning and the ground has been wet, which won't enable the Pirellis to really warm up and stick without the warmers.
 

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FWIW I wear the astars alloy leather/mesh hybrid in the summer time, textile in the rain and cold because leather is not waterproof or a good insulator.

As far as the idea that textiles won't hold up in a highway speed crash is simply the dumbest chit I've ever heard.

I personally crashed my fieldsheer congo sport mesh jacket with super heavy cordura in the shoulders and sleeves, along with patches of it in the back at 55ish mph and it had no melty spots, frayed material or fuzzballs when I got up and walked away, it's not so much the material as it is how it's put together.

Case in point, I've seen at least five new $380 icon leather motorhead jackets with busted snaps and stitching coming apart thats only ever been tried on, but I've seen frank thomas jackets that've been crashed dozens of times that still looked great.
 

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Well, to add more fuel to the leather vs. textile debate, I tought I'd copy and paste here a post by someone else, on another forum that I frequent. This was posted today at http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=47423.0

It's kind of long, so I'll summarize the point that I'm posting it for: According to a Progressive adjuster and motorcycle enthusiast who has seen the aftermath thousands of motorcycle crashes on the street, the extra abrasion protection that leather offers over textile gear is WORTHLESS on the street. Not better protection, not good insurance, not eve okay in some situations, but -- irrelevant. YMMV.


The accident adjuster that totalled my bike yesterday was a really nice guy who is also a hardcore motorcycle enthusiast. He rides a Suzuki DRZ supermoto that he humiliates squids with on the Appalachian Gap and Hurricane Mtn Road. We've had several good threads on here about gear and accident statistics(of which, I am now one) and I asked him some questions about what he sees on a daily basis.

He investigates more than a dozen accident claims every week and is one of only two adjusters for Progressive in VT that specializes in bikes. He has worked Bike Week in Laconia for several years. He has seen quite literally, thousands of wrecked bikes.

He said:
-The overwhelming majority of accidents are single vehicle. Speed is a factor.
-Cars hitting bikes(like me) is a very rare occurence.
-Harley's account for about half of his work but it's because they're so popular...not because the riders have less skill or experience.
-He sees 3-4 Yamaha R6's every week and they all get totalled. They crash terribly. The riders are almost never wearing gear.
-BMW owners are douchebags and make his life miserable.

When we started talking gear and injuries, it got kind of interesting. He sees people standing around with hangdog expressions and roadrash every single day. This is a guy who is maybe 35, athletic and rides his DRZ hard....and he had way more respect for Harley riders than squids. Mostly because the R6 riding wingnuts get banged up a lot more and it's avoidable. He said any gear is better than no gear so a beanie helmet and leather vest on a Harley always trumps the kid on the R6 with no helmet and a wife beater t-shirt. The overwhelming injury he sees is roadrash. Bad, bad roadrash and even a jean jacket will completely avoid it he said. Most of the crashes are relatively low speed, like around 25-30 when people hit the ground so even a sweatshirt and cheap leather gloves would work to stop injury. The next level of injury he sees are broken bones/internal. He said most people come to a stop when they hit a curb, tree, stonewall, etc. Armor really does work on the street.

When I asked him what he wore for gear I was kind of suprised. He wears an inexpensive modular helmet, a hundred dollar Fieldsheer armored textile jacket, good gloves, work boots and Carharts. I figured someone who looked at people ground up like hamburger all day would be a total gear whore but that wasn't the case. He did say that he really liked my Firstgear Kathmandu jacket and was going to buy one after he inspected it for crash damage. I remarked that I'd probably wear a leather race suit if I had to see what he did everyday. He just shrugged and said no one slides on the street. They roll, flip, tumble and cartwheel. Then they hit something.

That last remark, "No one slides on the street," is exactly the point I tried to make earlier as to the reason why a leather suit is not essential street gear, and may even be counterproductive. On a track, wearing leathers offers a distinct advantage because people who have a get-off typically slide quite a ways, and the racetrack is designed to accommodate that. On the street, not only do people NOT slide, you wouldn't WANT to slide, as you're likely to slide right into oncoming traffic or a guard rail.
 

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Well, to add more fuel to the leather vs. textile debate, I tought I'd copy and paste here a post by someone else, on another forum that I frequent. This was posted today at http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=47423.0

It's kind of long, so I'll summarize the point that I'm posting it for: According to a Progressive adjuster and motorcycle enthusiast who has seen the aftermath thousands of motorcycle crashes on the street, the extra abrasion protection that leather offers over textile gear is WORTHLESS on the street. Not better protection, not good insurance, not eve okay in some situations, but -- irrelevant. YMMV.


The accident adjuster that totalled my bike yesterday was a really nice guy who is also a hardcore motorcycle enthusiast. He rides a Suzuki DRZ supermoto that he humiliates squids with on the Appalachian Gap and Hurricane Mtn Road. We've had several good threads on here about gear and accident statistics(of which, I am now one) and I asked him some questions about what he sees on a daily basis.

He investigates more than a dozen accident claims every week and is one of only two adjusters for Progressive in VT that specializes in bikes. He has worked Bike Week in Laconia for several years. He has seen quite literally, thousands of wrecked bikes.

He said:
-The overwhelming majority of accidents are single vehicle. Speed is a factor.
-Cars hitting bikes(like me) is a very rare occurence.
-Harley's account for about half of his work but it's because they're so popular...not because the riders have less skill or experience.
-He sees 3-4 Yamaha R6's every week and they all get totalled. They crash terribly. The riders are almost never wearing gear.
-BMW owners are douchebags and make his life miserable.

When we started talking gear and injuries, it got kind of interesting. He sees people standing around with hangdog expressions and roadrash every single day. This is a guy who is maybe 35, athletic and rides his DRZ hard....and he had way more respect for Harley riders than squids. Mostly because the R6 riding wingnuts get banged up a lot more and it's avoidable. He said any gear is better than no gear so a beanie helmet and leather vest on a Harley always trumps the kid on the R6 with no helmet and a wife beater t-shirt. The overwhelming injury he sees is roadrash. Bad, bad roadrash and even a jean jacket will completely avoid it he said. Most of the crashes are relatively low speed, like around 25-30 when people hit the ground so even a sweatshirt and cheap leather gloves would work to stop injury. The next level of injury he sees are broken bones/internal. He said most people come to a stop when they hit a curb, tree, stonewall, etc. Armor really does work on the street.

When I asked him what he wore for gear I was kind of suprised. He wears an inexpensive modular helmet, a hundred dollar Fieldsheer armored textile jacket, good gloves, work boots and Carharts. I figured someone who looked at people ground up like hamburger all day would be a total gear whore but that wasn't the case. He did say that he really liked my Firstgear Kathmandu jacket and was going to buy one after he inspected it for crash damage. I remarked that I'd probably wear a leather race suit if I had to see what he did everyday. He just shrugged and said no one slides on the street. They roll, flip, tumble and cartwheel. Then they hit something.

That last remark, "No one slides on the street," is exactly the point I tried to make earlier as to the reason why a leather suit is not essential street gear, and may even be counterproductive. On a track, wearing leathers offers a distinct advantage because people who have a get-off typically slide quite a ways, and the racetrack is designed to accommodate that. On the street, not only do people NOT slide, you wouldn't WANT to slide, as you're likely to slide right into oncoming traffic or a guard rail.

100% agree with that statement.


To the OP who started this thread. Bargin hunt, yes new gear is cool and awesome but you will probably go through it like crazy and want more stuff. I ended up getting good deals on a joe rocket alter ego jacket and pants and spent some good money on sidi boots.

I have textile and love it! Good luck.
 

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"When we started talking gear and injuries, it got kind of interesting. He sees people standing around with hangdog expressions and roadrash every single day...The overwhelming injury he sees is roadrash. Bad, bad roadrash and even a jean jacket will completely avoid it he said...Armor really does work on the street. "

That last remark, "No one slides on the street," is exactly the point I tried to make earlier as to the reason why a leather suit is not essential street gear, and may even be counterproductive. On a track, wearing leathers offers a distinct advantage because people who have a get-off typically slide quite a ways, and the racetrack is designed to accommodate that. On the street, not only do people NOT slide, you wouldn't WANT to slide, as you're likely to slide right into oncoming traffic or a guard rail.
The overwhelming injury he sees is bad, bad road rash and yet abrasion protection is not relevant, or important?

That doesn't seem to be a logically coherent argument.

On a race track, unless you are a motogp star, sliding across the pavement for an extended period of time is less common than people might think. Since it is extremely rare for people to crash when they are going straight, after crashing you will quickly proceed to slide off the corner of the track you crashed in, and that may be 20 feet or less of sliding or tossing around before you get off the track into various stuff. Since most local tracks don't have the safe runoff that you see in the world televised superbike tracks, you will likely hook on gravel or whatever else you encounter and get tossed around hard, and/or hit barriers or other obstacles. Done it many times. As a frequent crasher, I have a little sliding with a lot of more rolling, hitting stuff and such.

Anyway, back to the original textile vs. leather debate. I can speculate that there may be textile gear on the market with adequate body armor and abrasion protection for the average crash that occurs on the street. In my experience, though, I have never seen one. If you can find one, and want to risk your body on that bet, then I wish you the best of luck with no bitterness. If someone asks me my opinion I will speak from my experiences that resoundingly, unequivocally support the use of proper leather gear and denounce textile gear as products that are commonly made to fit into low price points--not to offer a high standard of protection.
 

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The overwhelming injury he sees is bad, bad road rash and yet abrasion protection is not relevant, or important?
.

Missing the point. The extra abrasion protection of leather is neither relevant nor important.

This guy has seen thousands of crash victims, and most road rash is because the rider wasn't wearing ANY gear. He even says that most of the road rash injuries he sees could have been prevented by as little as a denim jacket. (Not that I'm advocating denim jackets as safety gear. He also says that armor is important for impact protection, as you will eventually hit something.)

My point: Leather has significant drawbacks on the street, in terms of weight, mobility, comfort, and adaptability to changing weather conditions. This is where textiles have the advantage. Leather has the abrasion advantage, but if that advantage never comes into play in the thousands of wrecks that this guy has seen, then I submit you're putting up with the disadvantages of leather without gaining any practical advantage.
 

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I am not going to belabor this debate, as I am both astounded that it even is occuring and also believe that people who want to give up protection for the sake of comfort won't be dissuaded from it via some internet volley of words.

The previous link and several posts have indicated that it is quite possible that a textile jacket will die in the throws of a single crash.

2 SPECIFIC cases of personal friends:

My friend Steve started riding and I told him what to buy. Instead of buying what I told him to buy, he went to a local store and bought matching textile jacket and pants, knee pucks and all. Unfortunately for him he crashed a couple of months later, during which his textile jacked ripped several seams and he got a decent amount of road rash and bruising. He recognized that we had warned him, he went and bought a full leather 2 piece suit, and in his subsequent 2 crashes at even higher speeds have not sustained ANY road rash or injuries other than mild bruising.

Case number 2: my friend Mickel started riding and I told him what to buy but he didn't follow my gear advice, went out playing around and looped his bike while trying to wheelie. He sustained serious road rash in several places due to his textile gear shredding mid crash tumble. Then he was listening, and bought a leather setup. He crashed once after that and had no road rash or serious injury.

No internet post will dissuade me of what I have personally witnessed, which is a common and sad occurrence of new riders putting too much faith in textile gear that rips or shreds on impact, leaving their skin open to inevitable damage during subsequent tumbling.

If this kind of discussion isn't persuasive enough, I doubt there's anything else I can say to compel a reader to consider that textile is not usually enough.

There is no argument in the world that would make me think that persuading new riders to buy textile gear doesn't directly result in situations just like the above, in which real people get hurt, while it is both tragic and avoidable. OK, that's it for me on this topic.
 

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Cfreger has said it several times. Textiles are designed to be destroyed in a crash. I personally am with you on leather. This thread should be locked. It is too old and opinionated

That is all.

Oh wait, I forgot, this is SVR, the angry mob... :)
 

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Missing the point. The extra abrasion protection of leather is neither relevant nor important.
For street gear, I agree with this.

For those who insist on having the most protection instead of adequate protection, I think you're coming up short with leather. Get yourself a full metal suit of armor and wear it whenever you throw your leg over the bike. It may not be the most practical thing to wear on a bike, but it sure will protect you better when you're sliding across pavement than that one piece leather race suit you're currently wearing.

edit: To be clear, I'm not saying leather is bad for the street or advocating for textile gear over leather gear, I'm just saying leather isn't necessary for the street.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Well this thread has certainly turned interesting. Sorry i have not responded for a bit I have been busy with life. I appreciate the comments and now would like to answer a few of the questions. I will mostly do in city street riding. I live in southern wisconsin. It appears that I will most likely need to wear a XXXl jacket, I am a big guy. Does anybody have any opinions on the helmet and gloves. I got a lot of feedback on the jackets lol.
 

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Seraphim, the commonality in that last post is the quality of jackets they bought. Had either of those riders researched their textile gear before they bought it, and bought a highly rated textile jacket, the outcome may have been different.

If either of your friends had followed your advice, but cheaped out and got a low cost leather jacket, the result probably would have been the same as the textiles they bought.

To the OP: did you follow the links on my posts? Both Motorcycle Gear and Motorcycle Superstore usually have a handful of reviews on each product they sell. Go shop by brand, looks, or price, and read each review and feature description they give. Make the informed choice then.
 

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Datech, with all due respect, you have made statements about the choices my friends made without knowing the facts of this situation.

Steve bought one of the most expensive, highest quality textile suits he could find. Mickel tends to be cheap but bought a mid-quality textile setup.

After their textile disintegration experiences, both of them bought Teknic leathers, which I consider to be on the low end of the quality scale as I have seen ta couple split seams in crashes. In my observation the Teknic leathers offered better abrasion resistance than the higher priced textile products, with only slightly better durability during a crash.

I also read your links.

I would also like to assert that some of the previous disadvantages of leather don't have to be the case. Buying leathers that fit properly, for your climate and intended usage helps alot.

-Excessive weight listed as a drawback: there are lighter weight and heavier suits. Vansons are pretty heavy for example. Kangaroo suits are light and more flexible.
-Leather gear can be quite comfortable if they fit properly
-Leather gear can be configured for hot weather with lots of venting or not. The perception that they are too hot to wear in warmer climates is a misconception.
 

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Datech, with all due respect, you have made statements about the choices my friends made without knowing the facts of this situation.

Steve bought one of the most expensive, highest quality textile suits he could find. Mickel tends to be cheap but bought a mid-quality textile setup.

After their textile disintegration experiences, both of them bought Teknic leathers, which I consider to be on the low end of the quality scale as I have seen ta couple split seams in crashes. In my observation the Teknic leathers offered better abrasion resistance than the higher priced textile products, with only slightly better durability during a crash.

I also read your links.

I would also like to assert that some of the previous disadvantages of leather don't have to be the case. Buying leathers that fit properly, for your climate and intended usage helps alot.

-Excessive weight listed as a drawback: there are lighter weight and heavier suits. Vansons are pretty heavy for example. Kangaroo suits are light and more flexible.
-Leather gear can be quite comfortable if they fit properly
-Leather gear can be configured for hot weather with lots of venting or not. The perception that they are too hot to wear in warmer climates is a misconception.
The way you phrased your post really made it seemed like they went the far and away cheap route with a cheap textile. What was the high quality jacket your friend crashed in so I can know not to buy it?

Also, my links were just to the basic gear websites for the OP. It's his choice to get whatever good leather or textile is on sale based on research and reviews. They weren't part of the argument ;)
 

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In all fairness I don't remember the brands but remember that he spent something like $400 on a jacket and pants, which would have easily gotten him something in leather that would have better protected him (in my opinion of course). I think it was either Firstgear or Icon, but don't remember.

I did post that they went the cheap route with textile, (speaking relative to leather gear not relative to other textile gear) as I think it is common for new riders to go to stores and see higher prices for leather and walk away with sticker shock. They don't know that affordable used/like new leather gear can be found quite easily but they aren't familiiar with the places where such deals can be found...
 

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They don't know that affordable used/like new leather gear can be found quite easily but they aren't familiiar with the places where such deals can be found...
Now THIS would be useful information. Care to share?

(No, I'm not a hypocrite. I'm thinking of trying some track days.)
 
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