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This isnt really a racing question but I figure you guys would know best :

I was wondering what causes this (front push) ? I'm more interested in rider error and how to fix it . It seems that I use a bit more of th front tire than the rear . As you can imagine it's pretty unsettling when you tip into a turn and the bike turns in quickly but also feels like its goin away from you.
 

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A lot of things can cause the front end to "push" or slide. Are you sliding the front or is the feeling of the front tire vague. Are you getting head shake, when does this happen, on hard braking or just canyon carving? Does it happen on corner turn in or on corner exit or both. Is the front tire "pogoing", do you get a lot of dive when braking?

I know a lot of guys at Loudon that are comfortable sliding the back end around (even me sometimes) but I only know a handful that push the front end and it doesn't unsettle them.

Have you done any setup to the suspension at all, albeit the stock suspension does not offer much in the way of adjustment .
 

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The first suspect is bike setup. The second is probably tires. Perhaps vice versa. If it is just your riding style, well, there's nothing really wrong with being a front-end biased rider rather than rear-end biased, but you want your bike set up properly for that. If you are sliding (and if your bike is well setup that isn't necessarily a big deal--the slide will be consistent and easy to manage) and you want to stop sliding pick up the throttle, it will redistribute weight to the rear. Alternatively, you can countersteer into the slide, which is what I tend to do out of habit but my former teamate didn't think much of.
 
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The front and rear sag is set (suspension is stock) for my weight , the tires are stock d220 (32 psi,36 psi respectively) . Most of the push or whatever it may be is at or soon after initial turn in and mid turn when I have to crank it over alittle further . So now that you guys got me thinking , maybe its the tires . Should the front pressure be alittle higher ? Is this common for the 220's ? ALso , the tires are starting to get flat in the center from commuting ! So with this new info what should I do different ly , check , change ?


Rich
 

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I don't know crap about tire pressures on the street, but I am sure there are a dozen people on the board that do. In fact, even on the track, I would have nothing to say about pressures for Dunlops. That said, bizarre pressures can seriously screw with handling and traction. Set up of your suspension involves a lot more than sag. It involves spring rate, geometry, compression and rebound. I don't think you can adjust compression without changing parts. You can adjust rebound via fork oil weight. Is the geometry stock? or have you messed with it? Are you doing this on the street? If so, it is very dangerous and I would get it fixed. Are you seriously sliding? How far? If so, how are you saving the slide? On your knee? bar input? picking up the throttle? Or do you just feel insecure on the front? All of that said, I would change the front tire and make sure you have appropriate pressures--it sounds like your tire is done.
 

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Not that I would set my street tires at this pressure but for the track,  Dunlop Dot Race tires are set 29 Rear and 31 Front that is the recommended pressure from the Dunlop guy (and the Pirelli guy too) for the track.  I run my street tires on my GSXR 1000 2 or 3 pounds lower than the recommended pressure with the rear being 1 pound lower than the front.

If the tires are getting a flat spot it is time for a change out.  That can definitely cause strange sensations on turn in.   You will notice a world of difference on new tires.

I am not sure how you were able to get SAG dialed in with stock suspension but good job.   I would look into changing out the springs for your weight, putting in emulators, and changing out your fork oil.  The modification is not that expensive and makes a world of difference.   If you can swing it,  you might want to change out the rear shock as well.  If you don't want to drop the dough on a Penske ,  even a GSXR or ZX-6 shock modification is better than the stock shock.
 

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Ivan said:
I would hope that this isn't a real front-end push because precious few people can recover from a front-end push.

This seems odd to me. In my experience this is a lot easier than recovering from a sliding rear. I, and I am not alone, have never crashed from sliding the front. I have crashed after sliding the rear probably 10 times. Plus, the crash is worse than it would be from sliding the front. In general, well set-up SVs slide well, both front and back. YOu don't want to be doing this on the street, but traction management is something that every rider should be comfortable with, at least comfortable enough not to panic. Similarly with braking. Trail braking is apparently not part of Ivan's skill set, but it should be, even on the street (though I wouldn't practice there). In general, anyone who tells you there is only one way to ride without being specific about the circumstances is wrong. Riding is a toolkit. The more tools you have the more ability you have to respond to different situations you confront.
 

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The SV has a natural bias towards the rear tire due to its configuration. I had to lower the front end and raise the back end with an aftermarket shock to get rid of the problem. Now the bike tracks perfectly at high speeds and steep lean angles.
 

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I keep the rear end bias intentionally (though moderated by various setup changes). The reason I slide the rear more is that it is easier to slide the rear more because it has power going through it. Making it more front-end biased would only make the sliding at the rear worse, not better all other things being equal.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Michael McQuarrie said:
In general, well set-up SVs slide well, both front and back.
well set up sv will not slide.
if you sliding with sv something is wrong,either bike,tires or you.
 

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Huh? That's crazy. Any bike will slide. It just matters what forces are acting on it and the available level of traction. Moreover, sliding it is not necessarily a 'problem'.

That said, when I have slid the front it is usually do to an incomplete setup change or aging tires.
 
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Michael McQuarrie said:
Huh? That's crazy. Any bike will slide. It just matters what forces are acting on it and the available level of traction. Moreover, sliding it is not necessarily a 'problem'.

That said, when I have slid the front it is usually do to an incomplete setup change or aging tires.
maybe I am crazy or just to slow :)
I never slide with my sv.unless I make mistake or run over something.
 

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I guess Ivan's penis size is smaller than mine, and smaller than pretty much everyone I race and ride with who view trail braking as an essential skill that is used several times a lap. It is also one that I find carries over very well to the street. I am not alone in this view. Until you, I don't think I have ever even met anyone who thought this was controversial.

I never thought it took a big penis to learn how to trail brake. I just figured it was a handy skill that I was going to have to learn to win any races. It never would have even occurred to me that someone would view it as particularly dangerous. It is also a skill taught by the track club I coached for and numerous other schools and clubs I have attended. I have never crashed from trail braking. It's not nearly as hard as you seem to think.

Ivan, you are apparently a little fearful (somewhat irrationally) about developing riding skills. This does not mean that the skill in question is inherently dangerous or unwise. Jesus, there's nothing more annoying than people who know a little pretending they know every damn thing there is about riding. You are in no position to judge for other people what skills are too dangerous or safe enough to learn. Just because trail braking is something you choose not to master/can't master doesn't mean it isn't useful or even particularly dangerous. TWF never slides the bike and apparently he has never crossed over the line into any sort of tire slip. Most people do and have. Not possessing the godlike skills of TWF who clearly should be in MotoGP, I, and others, spent a lot of time, money, and injury learning how to manage slides, including those on the front. I didn't intend to, but they happen. In fact, I don't even know how to explore the limits of my riding skills without occasionally going over the limit. Everyone other than TWF makes mistakes. My experience isn't all that unusual. Many racers ride the front of the SV. Many ride the rear. Many are fast. You would do well to pay attention to what they are doing. Maybe you will learn something.
 

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Michael McQuarrie said:
Not possessing the godlike skills of TWF who clearly should be in MotoGP, I, and others, spent a lot of time, money, and injury learning how to manage slides, including those on the front. I didn't intend to, but they happen. In fact, I don't even know how to explore the limits of my riding skills without occasionally going over the limit. Everyone other than TWF makes mistakes.
1- Whats with the negativity toward Zoran? I think you took his comment a little too seriously/personally.

2- Maybe you are doing something wrong if you are constantly sliding around? Maybe you are overriding your suspension or tires? Maybe you need to adjust your technique? How often are you sliding the front? You make it sound like its a pretty regular thing.
 
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Ivan said:
These are my reasons for concentrating trail-braking for last. Now I'm always amendable to people shooting down my arguments, but ya gotta tell me why trail-braking is so advantagous on the racetrack.
it effectivly makes straightway longer and less time spend coasting.
you brake later and deeper and moment you release brake you apply throttle.most people waste a lot time on coasting in turns.however,every turn is different and you have to figure out what is best way around that particular turn.
 
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Michael McQuarrie said:
TWF never slides the bike and apparently he has never crossed over the line into any sort of tire slip. Most people do and have. Not possessing the godlike skills of TWF who clearly should be in MotoGP,
if I should I would,but I am not,for reason(I dont have skill for it).
I never said I dont make mistake or never slide.
however,any lap time you can do sliding around like mad man I will beat by not sliding at all.you pick track.
like Yosh said,you missreading my post.
 

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Get on the GAS! Get power to the rear wheel and stop weighting the front. This is why a lot of guys "loose" the front when in a turn.
 
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Ivan said:
I wonder why sliding on a dirtbike or a supermoto (I've never riden a supermoto, BTW) is so easy but so hard on a streetbike?

The only slides I do on the track are those drifting slides at the apex of the turn but I don't know if those are really slides or if the suspension is bumping me along. I can't tell. With dirtbikes I slide all the time. I just don't know whether sliding is good or not. I've seen guys spin up like mad and pass me; I've seen guys spinning up who I motor by so easily. And I've seen guys who don't spin at all who smoke me.

I do know spinning up the rear tire does wear it out faster but it's worth it if you are faster in an absolute sense. And it broke my heart to see a Ducati 888 and a Bimota crash right in front of me when they highsided (I've done TrackRiders but I've never raced so take what I say with a pinch of salt) from spinning.
it is funny but slower guys slide more than faster ones.I always hear guys saying I slid front here and there and rear was sliding in every corner ....etc.all this while going 10 seconds slower than guys running up front.part of it is bike not set up right and other biggest part is them.they trying to get in corner hard,than they parked in middle of corner since they got in to fast for their skill,than they get on throttle to hard because they are parked.they dont know how to connect this 3 things together,go in fast,keep mid corner speed up and drive out strong.if you connect it right you will go fast,be smooth and wont spin tire.sv does not have power to spin rear tire if you doing it right.I have fastest sv around here and can't do it,unless I park it first and than ham fist throttle.
 
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Ivan said:
I wonder why sliding on a dirtbike or a supermoto (I've never riden a supermoto, BTW) is so easy but so hard on a streetbike?
put wide bars on your street bike,drop half of its weight and it will be much easier. ;D
 

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TWF said:
put wide bars on your street bike,drop half of its weight and it will be much easier. ;D
:p

I was just going to say that, it's mostly because dirtbikes dont weigh 400lbs. lol
 
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