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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well it was very cold the other night and the bike didn't want to start. It did the ole not gonna start gonna drain the battery trying routine. I have two batteries, a trickle charger, and swap about once a month for this reason.

So I got a coworker to assist by giving me a jump start. I have jumped the bike before but never off a running car.

So anyway I went to hook up the cables on the cycle.... and that's when I saw the big old spark... dang.... I didn't realize he had already hooked up to his running car :(.

Well today I checked all the fuses and put in my freshly charged spare battery..... the bike still does nothing.

The lights don't come on, no clicky when you try to start nothing. It is completely and totally dead... deceased... nada.

So is there a main relay that comes one when the key is turned to the on position? I am suspecting that if there is, that it is fried. None of the bulbs in the bike are blown either.

Are there any fuseable links that might have gotten smoked too?

Hmm... I'll see what everyone has to say... then it'll be time to get out the shop manual and the multimeter I guess and go through it. This pretty much sucks.

Thanks,
Anthony
 

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99-02 bikes have a fuse on the starter solenoid in the back of the lower right subframe mount.

I was warned by the local salvage yards where I buy my bikes that if you jump the SV off a running car you WILL fry the rectifier/regulator.
I never jumped mine off a running car, only with the car off.
 

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you know you can push start a bike right???
 

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Never, ever, jump a bike off a running car. Most cars have charging systems that will fry a bikes lowly electrical system. It's safe to jump off a car battery, but the vehicle should never be running.

That being said, Don's earlier post about the fuses is probably valid.
 

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lkm said:
you know you can push start a bike right??? 
Sometimes. What if it's an '03-'06 bike with electronic fuel injection? Gotta run that fuel pump to get any gas into the engine, a dead battery can't do that.
 

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AvidSV650Rider said:
Sometimes.  What if it's an '03-'06 bike with electronic fuel injection?  Gotta run that fuel pump to get any gas into the engine, a dead battery can't do that.
nevermind what i said. i realize your all imbiciles.
 

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Anthony, me thinks that you had a charging system problem anyway if you've been swaping out 2 batteries
 

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tonyjuliano said:
Never, ever,  jump a bike off a running car.  Most cars have charging systems that will fry a bikes lowly electrical system.  It's safe to jump off a car battery, but the vehicle should never be running.

That being said, Don's earlier post about the fuses is probably valid.
BullShite,  I have done it many times on many bikes including my SV.  most car's electrical systems (unless they are 24 volts) put out the same voltage as the bike (maybe a little higher but not enough to fry the electrical system).  The bike will only draw the power it needs.  Since Voltage x Current = power,  it is the same amount of current in the electrical system.   If you leave the two hooked up once started,  The cars charging system will try to maintain voltage and the bikes charging system will be shunting all of the extra voltage away heating up it's voltage regulator.  So don't keep them connected for any length of time once the bike is running.   It is actually harder on the bike's charging system with the car off once the bike is running since the bikes charging system will be trying to float 2 batteries instead of one. 

It is more likely that the guy and his buddy reversed the polarities when hooking up the batteries or the guy shorted the positive terminal to ground.  Reversing the polarity can certainly fry electrical components.  If the polarity was reversed,  they are lucky the battery didn't explode.  I have seen that happen.

Check the Main 30 amp fuse. I bet it is blown. 
 

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Actually jumping a car off another car while it is running can ause problems also...very rare but it can happen when the cars are running. A friend of mine is a mechanic at one of the local bike shops and said the same thing a while back after my boss's son fried his electrical system by trying to help soeone jump off their car with his bike ::) he said you should never jump off a bike with a running car or you risk frying other things than just the rectifier.
 

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Tazz said:
Bulls**te,  I have done it many times on many bikes including my SV.  most car's electrical systems (unless they are 24 volts) put out the same voltage as the bike (maybe a little higher but not enough to fry the electrical system).  The bike will only draw the power it needs.  Since Voltage x Current = power,  it is the same amount of current in the electrical system.   If you leave the two hooked up once started,  The cars charging system will try to maintain voltage and the bikes charging system will be shunting all of the extra voltage away heating up it's voltage regulator.  So don't keep them connected for any length of time once the bike is running.   It is actually harder on the bike's charging system with the car off once the bike is running since the bikes charging system will be trying to float 2 batteries instead of one. 

It is more likely that the guy and his buddy reversed the polarities when hooking up the batteries or the guy shorted the positive terminal to ground.  Reversing the polarity can certainly fry electrical components.  If the polarity was reversed,  they are lucky the battery didn't explode.  I have seen that happen.

Check the Main 30 amp fuse. I bet it is blown. 
Well, unfortunately you are misinformed. You will most certainly cause damage by trying to jump a bike off a running car. Voltage is a small part of the equation. I don't know the technical details, but save yourself the headache of even trying. Why would you even risk it since a car battery is more than suffcient to start a bike.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
donniej said:
99-02 bikes have a fuse on the starter solenoid in the back of the lower right subframe mount. 

I was warned by the local salvage yards where I buy my bikes that if you jump the SV off a running car you WILL fry the rectifier/regulator. 
I never jumped mine off a running car, only with the car off.
I had always jumped it off my tiny little Mazda Miata previously when it was off. This worked fine and was easy. I killed the battery a few times thanks to the wonderfully located parking light position being so close to the lock position. I doubt I have a serious charging problem. It was just a hard start on a cold night. That seems typical from what I have read.

Yes I could push start the bike on a low battery, but in this part of TX it is pretty darn flat. I've done that once too.

So where exactly is this bigger 30 amp fuse? Anyone have a picture or a more accurate description for a bozo like me?

Thanks in advance.
 

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AnthonyS said:
I had always jumped it off my tiny little Mazda Miata previously when it was off.  This worked fine and was easy.  I killed the battery a few times thanks to the wonderfully located parking light position being so close to the lock position.  I doubt I have a serious charging problem.  It was just a hard start on a cold night. That seems typical from what I have read.

Yes I could push start the bike on a low battery, but in this part of TX it is pretty darn flat.  I've done that once too.

So where exactly is this bigger 30 amp fuse?  Anyone have a picture or a more accurate description for a bozo like me? 

Thanks in advance.
If you SV starts that hard, maybe you should tune it up or something, mine easily starts as soon as I thumb the starter button temps here have been in the low 20's when I head out to work
 

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athflying79 said:
Well, unfortunately you are misinformed. You will most certainly cause damage by trying to jump a bike off a running car. Voltage is a small part of the equation. I don't know the technical details, but save yourself the headache of even trying. Why would you even risk it since a car battery is more than suffcient to start a bike.
Fortunately...I do know the technical details, I am an electrical engineer and before that I was an AC/DC machinery electrician for 12 years. I have been riding and jump starting motorcycles for about 29 years... so I can tell you that Power, Voltage, Current and the SCRs in the Voltage Regulator of the bike are what is in the equation in conjunction with the Voltage Regulator of the car. If you like, I can draw you a schematic and explain the details of DC systems operating in parallel.

The Normal charging output of the SV is 14 - 15.5 Volts DC Amazingly enough so are most cars.

If you don't know the "technical details" how can you tell me I am misinformed. ::)
 

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Tazz said:
The Normal charging output of the SV is 14 - 15.5 Volts DC  Amazingly enough so are most cars.
Well, I'm not an electrical engineer such as yourself (I'm a ME), but from my understanding charging output is not the limiting factor.

The motorcycle voltage regulators I've seen all take the approach of shunting excess generated power to ground, the SV is no exception in this regard. This has the advantage of making sure that the voltage is the same everywhere in the system, but the disadvantage of meaning that the stator is always flowing its maximum rated supply current. This, I think, is why many motorcycles have a reputation for frying stators (again the SV is no exception).

So the design of one of these regulators is completely different from a cage regulator. It has a voltage detection part, like the other regulators, but the big resistor/power transistor package has to be strong enough to carry all the possible excess power generation to ground. It handles a lot more power than the car regulator has to. It generates a lot of heat as it does this, which is why the regulator on the SV is finned and out in the open air--to carry off the heat before it cooks something in or around the regulator. A typical bike magneto makes 30-50 amps at max power. So the regulator is designed to dissipate a maximum of about 700 watts for short periods (this would be full power and no loads on the bike--the battery and lights are all missing). In practice, this cooks the regulator pretty fast--they don't like to dissipate more than about 200 watts for any length of time.

But the best argument is that any cage battery is sufficient in itself to start any motorcycle, so why tempt fate?
 

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push starting an SV...I need a how too...cause i cant keep the back tire from just slidding down the road when I pop the clutch on a cold day. Actually on a cold day I cant even push the bike in nuetral without pulling in the clutch till its warmed up or the back tire tries to slide. This also means I cant get it rolling fast enough to hop up on it while rolling to get my body weight into it enough to try preventing the rear tire from sliding....
Warmer weather is fine though.

On a related note, I have jump started my bike off a running car a couple times with no issues. Mainly because just the battery wasnt enough I tried without the car running the first time....connection quallity issues really I think.
 

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jonesdb said:
push starting an SV...I need a how too...cause i cant keep the back tire from just slidding down the road when I pop the clutch on a cold day.  Actually on a cold day I cant even push the bike in nuetral without pulling in the clutch till its warmed up or the back tire tries to slide. This also means I cant get it rolling fast enough to hop up on it while rolling to get my body weight into it enough to try preventing the rear tire from sliding....
Warmer weather is fine though.

On a related note, I have jump started my bike off a running car a couple times with no issues. Mainly because just the battery wasnt enough I tried without the car running the first time....connection quallity issues really I think.
you have to use 3rd or higher and you don't want to be running 15w40 rotella or 20w-50 either.

with a fully charged battery, and in good tune, the SV should start almost immediately down to 10° or colder as it gets colder than that, sometimes you have to keep the starter engaged for 10-15 seconds until it runs on it's own
 

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tonyjuliano said:
Well, I'm not an electrical engineer such as yourself (I'm a ME), but from my understanding charging output is not the limiting factor.

The motorcycle voltage regulators I've seen all take the approach of shunting excess generated power to ground, the SV is no exception in this regard. This has the advantage of making sure that the voltage is the same everywhere in the system, but the disadvantage of meaning that the stator is always flowing its maximum rated supply current. This, I think, is why many motorcycles have a reputation for frying stators (again the SV is no exception).

So the design of one of these regulators is completely different from a cage regulator. It has a voltage detection part, like the other regulators, but the big resistor/power transistor package has to be strong enough to carry all the possible excess power generation to ground. It handles a lot more power than the car regulator has to. It generates a lot of heat as it does this, which is why the regulator on the SV is finned and out in the open air--to carry off the heat before it cooks something in or around the regulator. A typical bike magneto makes 30-50 amps at max power. So the regulator is designed to dissipate a maximum of about 700 watts for short periods (this would be full power and no loads on the bike--the battery and lights are all missing). In practice, this cooks the regulator pretty fast--they don't like to dissipate more than about 200 watts for any length of time.

But the best argument is that any cage battery is sufficient in itself to start any motorcycle, so why tempt fate?

I have never heard of stator problems with the SV, only RR problems

Tazz is correct, at least in one respect, a car's charging system won't put any more power into the bikes system than it demands

problem arizes that a bikes electical system is only designed to accept a charge at about a 5 amp rate max, that's why we charge them with a trickle charger instead of a quick charger, if the battery is so flat that it is demanding more amp and they are available, it can damage the system, not that it necessarily will, but it can
 

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jonesdb said:
push starting an SV...I need a how too...cause i cant keep the back tire from just slidding down the road when I pop the clutch on a cold day.  Actually on a cold day I cant even push the bike in nuetral without pulling in the clutch till its warmed up or the back tire tries to slide. This also means I cant get it rolling fast enough to hop up on it while rolling to get my body weight into it enough to try preventing the rear tire from sliding....
Warmer weather is fine though.
1) Be very strong
2) Be able to jump on the bike after being ve strong and running very fast and start it without it falling over.

I fail on both points, so I can't bump an SV on the flat :) Funnily enough, i had no problems starting an 800cc cruiser a while back.

My 125's starter broke, ages back. But since it had pistons the size of bottle tops I could push start it from cold in about 3 feet. Possibly its only redeeming feature...
 

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tonyjuliano said:
Well, I'm not an electrical engineer such as yourself (I'm a ME), but from my understanding charging output is not the limiting factor.

The motorcycle voltage regulators I've seen all take the approach of shunting excess generated power to ground, the SV is no exception in this regard. This has the advantage of making sure that the voltage is the same everywhere in the system, but the disadvantage of meaning that the stator is always flowing its maximum rated supply current. This, I think, is why many motorcycles have a reputation for frying stators (again the SV is no exception).

So the design of one of these regulators is completely different from a cage regulator. It has a voltage detection part, like the other regulators, but the big resistor/power transistor package has to be strong enough to carry all the possible excess power generation to ground. It handles a lot more power than the car regulator has to. It generates a lot of heat as it does this, which is why the regulator on the SV is finned and out in the open air--to carry off the heat before it cooks something in or around the regulator. A typical bike magneto makes 30-50 amps at max power. So the regulator is designed to dissipate a maximum of about 700 watts for short periods (this would be full power and no loads on the bike--the battery and lights are all missing). In practice, this cooks the regulator pretty fast--they don't like to dissipate more than about 200 watts for any length of time.

But the best argument is that any cage battery is sufficient in itself to start any motorcycle, so why tempt fate?

Actually a car alternater/regulator has power resistors, the bikes regulator just shunts excess voltage to ground through power SCRs fired by a voltage sensing circuit. The current through the SCRs generate heat but so does an auto regulator. The alternators Voltage regulator is normally in the alternator itself and is cooled by a fan which turns on the shaft of the alternator itself. If the bike's generator made 30 to 50 amps at max power, the 30 amp main line fuse would blow everytime the bike was at 5000 rpm?? A car's electrical system also shunts excess voltage to ground. Finally, if a short burst of 700 watts happened the main line 30 amp fuse would blow since that would be 58.8 amps of current.

Not sure where your numbers came from but the SV service manual actually says "Do not allow charging current to exceed 6 amps." (Most chargers have a 2 amp slow charge setting). Also according to the SV service manual the generator max output is 300 watts. Could not find any ratings of the regulator (I didn't check the regulator's name plate data though)

With the car off the car's battery is at 12 volts or less. Once the bike is running, it's battery is at 14 to 15.5 volts higher (assuming the charging system is working correctly) Current will flow from the Bike to the car battery. The current going from the bikes charging system to the car battery will only be limited by the car batteries internal resistance which will be determined by it's state of charge. So now the bike's charging system will be charging the bike's battery which is already at a low state of charge (reason it needed a jump) and the car's battery. It will also be supplying all of it's normal electric loads.

With all that said, do it however you want, on or off. Neither will damage the electrical system as long as you hook up the cables correctly and don't leave them connected for an an extended period of time with the bike running. I will continue to do it with the car running as I have always done
 
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