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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
With all the sharing going on and all the good info on here, I am thinking its time for me to share mine. I am a bit embarrassed about this as I have ridden prior...but nothing serious. Rode some small dirt bikes as a kid, rode friends scooters and some super sports throughout the years.

I was just puttering around my neighborhood with my new (used) SFV650 that I just got. I felt good on the bike and felt confident after about 5-6 hours total just around the neighborhood with a few short street trips to get gas. I decided to try some cornering, but just a bit faster. I know now that was dumb as I am trying to rush myself into this. I believe me having some experience on a bike gave me a false sense of security as I feel like I am past the beginner part. As I entered the turn, I got on the throttle while the bike was (and me slightly) lean into the turn and ended up going wide and into the gutter...My mind got focused on someones lawn 3/4 way through the turn and my eyes just locked on it. I got on the brakes fairly quickly but didn't lock the tire...I ended up riding the edge of the gutter and lawn and the bike slipped from under me. I was not really hurt at all (ATGATT) but a little cut on my shine under my knee from where the bike landed on me, thankful I did focus on grass and it broke my fall nicely. I did break my left side mirror (good, wanted them gone anyway) and bent my handlebar slightly. Was not going fast really, between 12-15 at the most. I had about 1 sq-ft of sod on the side of my bike, but nothing bent or damaged...no leaking....bike started right up pretty much (think there is a fuel cut off when the bike is on its side?), no funny nosies at all that I can tell. Just to be safe, my bike is going to the shop next week and going to have them do a full check on it.

Lessons I am going to take away from this.

1- LOOK THROUGH THE TURN....I let my eyes lock on something and wouldn't you know, I put the bike right where that was.

2- DO NOT accelerate till i have finished my turning input and the bike is pointed to my exit. I was wanting to try and take corners faster, but I forgot this or wanted to "test my limits" with this....

3- Having ridden in the past, but just a few joy rides, do not let this give you a false sense of security. I am going to act like I have never ridden before and start from there.

4- PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE....I am now going to go back to basics and act like I have never ridden before. WILL NOT rush through anything again.
 

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2- DO NOT get back on the throttle too soon, throttle makes the bike want to stand up....even a little throttle makes a huge difference when you trying to lean the bike over. You are fighting a battle you will not win (I mean, pros might, but I am no where close to that)
absolutely disagree on #2 (to the point I suggest you remove it altogether out of your post cause it will confuse others). it's honestly dangerous advice to not use throttle

the bike NEEDS throttle to turn. hold the countersteer and use steady or slightly increasing throttle.
if you're idling through a turn, you're engine braking.
if you're coasting through the turn clutch in, that's a surefire way to eat it. and to make sure you never get back on the throttle. clutch is for shifting and getting going, not for riding.

you crashed cause you didnt look far enough through the turn, freaked yourself out, and fixated on where you didnt want to go.

find a nice parking lot, and work on rolling onto the throttle in a curve. or better yet find a class or instructor so that you're not trying to self-diagnose (direct route to failure)

the ONLY WAY THROTTLE CRASHES YOU is if you do a lot agressively and the rear spins up.
 

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relevant: Oh No! I'm not making this corner!
Oh No! I'm not making this corner!
April 27, 2020

Any time you watch rnickeymouse on youtube, or look at killboy's pics, or any other motovational media, there is always a crash that is completely preventable. The "got scared, gave up, straightened out" crash. Where the rider gets spooked, thinks they're not going to make the turn, and goes straight.
The Problem
We've all done it as newer riders. Come into a corner with too much speed (and probably incorrect line) and mid corner realize we're not making it (or have more turning to do). We with our primate walk/run/climb brains aren't very good at leaning and leaning too much freaks us out. Which results in as Keith Code calls them "survival reactions" like straightening out. The problem is, straightening out wont help us make the corner, and puts us at the mercy of luck once we run out of lane. Trees, ditches, rocks, woods, lawns, hills, guardrails, parked cars, all sorts of stuff you don't want to interact with is usually at the edge of the road right where we're now headed.
Don'ts
Do NOT straighten out and fixate on the pole/guardrail/whatever
Do NOT look at the ground, etc. You go where you look. So, if you look at the ground that's where you're going.
Do NOT give up on the turn. "jesus take the wheel" is a fine song, but not a viable riding technique
Do NOT grab the brake (it will either wash out the tire, or make you more upright)
DO NOT chop the throttle (it will stand you up, and depending on gearing and engine braking may be equivalent to hitting the brakes)
DO NOT move your shoulders to the outside. The bike angle changes the opposite direction of where you move your body. So leaning out (making yourself more upright) decreases the available lean angle, and increases the traction demands on your tires
DO NOT tighten up on the bars. If your arms aren't relaxed, you can't steer (countersteer) very well and will end up fighting yourself
Dos
Look deeper through the corner. Look deeper through the corner.Look deeper through the corner.Look deeper through the corner. You go where you look. So, look where you WANT to go, not where you're going. Look further through and you'll find yourself making the turn more often than not. Bikes are more capable than we are at turning. So let the bike turn.
Keep an even throttle, or if you absolutely must, reduce it smoothly.
If you're braking, apply brakes gradually so as to not upset the chassis.
Keep pushing forward on the bar and make the bike lean more (countersteering)
Keep your body to the inside of the turn. "underneath" the bike. Give the bike more ground clearance, less traction demands, etc.
When you STILL screw it up
the good news is, if you did everything you knew how to do and still screwed this up, you had a lowside crash. if the bike was leaned over into the corner, and you were on the inside of it, you didn't fall very far. and hopefully the bike didnt tumble after it went wherever it went. This is infinitely better on your wallet/hide than hitting stuff.
If you did get on the brakes and straighten up, all is not lost. Look back through the corner, and countersteer and make the bike turn. You're not required to go straight despite what your brain is telling you.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I think you are thinking i said NO throttle through a turn and I know thats not right...but there is a point when you start making the turn that you go with in no throttle and start your turn, once there, you then accelerate out of the turn.

The problem for me was I was trying to take the corner faster than I normally do....leaned the bike over and came on the throttle well before the apex to carve into it. When that happened, the bike wanted to stand up while I was leaning to turn...once I noticed myself going wide, I slowly rolled off the throttle while getting on my brakes progressively..this is the point I was trying to make. I believe that there is a time to throttle out of the turn, but I was to quick back on the throttle and too much throttle, along with me noticing I was going wide, then fixated on what I was pointed at.

This was a 90 degree turn btw....
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I guess you could say it felt like a combination of too much throttle and not waiting for the mid turn to get back on along with fixating on something that i ended up hitting.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I think this is explains what I am meaning....I appreciate you letting me know, it was a combination of things..but to me at least, it felt like I went wrong trying to get back on the throttle before I finished my turning input and before my bike was pointed to my exit.....as soon as I noticed I was going wide, I then fixated on the exact spot where I put the bike down. The bike slipped under me from the off camber of the gutter. As I tried to move out right, it pushed me left into the grass and thats when it slipped and feel on the left side, hitting the grass. It was almost like a tank slapper, but much slower.

I almost felt like I "pushed" into the turn....

 

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I think this is explains what I am meaning....I appreciate you letting me know, it was a combination of things..but to me at least, it felt like I went wrong trying to get back on the throttle before I finished my turning input and before my bike was pointed to my exit.....as soon as I noticed I was going wide, I then fixated on the exact spot where I put the bike down. The bike slipped under me from the off camber of the gutter. As I tried to move out right, it pushed me left into the grass and thats when it slipped and feel on the left side, hitting the grass. It was almost like a tank slapper, but much slower.

I almost felt like I "pushed" into the turn....
That will do it...
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Here is a rough sketch of where I felt I went wrong. Please forgive it. Just a quick sketch. I think you will under stand what I meant by getting on the throttle too soon. I was leaning over on the crash version, but since I got back on the throttle, the bike straighten up and I felt like my lean was doing almost nothing. When I crossed over the middle lane is when I slowly came off the throttle and applied light brake....once I was straight, I was now in the gutter and my right input went against the camber of the gutter (our gutters are V shaped and fairly deep in florida, because of how much rain we have). It pushed me left and then the bike hit the grass, slipped and I pushed the bike to land in the grass (fixated target).

54176
 

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Discussion Starter #9
That will do it...
Yep, learned it the hard way.....would the proper terminology not be "getting on throttle too soon"? I did not know there was another way to explain this....I am new to street bikes. Please let me know how I can correct the wording to convey what I trying to say from the sketch above.
 

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in a completely irrelevant to street riding for new riders video
he said "when our steering is finished and our line is set for corner exit". this does NOT mean when you're done with the turn and pointed at the exit. this means when you're done with the initial steering input and are one the line that will take you where you intend to go.
"if that line doesnt take you past the apex you're going to miss it".
if your bike isn't ON THE LINE YOU WANT, of course you don't open the throttle. However, as soon as you got the bike to lean and it's going where you need it to then start adding throttle.

here's a vid of me doing a drill...
where am i getting on the gas? as soon as im done with the brakes and got the bike to angle (i'm trailbraking fairly aggressively here)



in the pic on the left your throttle application point was actually where it should have been. the one on the right would have meant you were riding over your head. you just needed to continue holding the turn and to look where you want to go


Throttle DOES NOT stand up the bike unless you let it. if you stop steering and whack the throttle your bike will go straight. and really your bike will always go where you look no matter what the hell you do with steering or throttle.

bikes need throttle (actually weight shift to the rear tire) to turn.
 

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riding like the right picture you're effectively trailbraking (using engine braking) through the entire corner. this results in lower ground clearance mid-corner (scraping parts), reduced bike stability, overloading the front tire and an unstable bike at lean.

if you're trying to be fast that will also mean wasted hours per lap.

but seriously, take a class. please. this stuff is scary to read the way you're explaining it. and concentrate on beginner skills videos and leave the track stuff for once you've covered the basics.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
I understand your point, but I do sense the condescension in your voice while you explaining and that's not really helping. Just FYI. Thanks for the info and I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

As I said I am new to street bikes, I understand the concept of what you are saying. I did roll off throttle through the turn that also made the bike stand up, did not think about that, I know its true, but at the time, I did not think of it. Coming into the turn, I figure to be a bit faster, I would brake fully before my turn get my bike leaned over and then apply the throttle, which was right..I just needed to keep focused on the exit of the turn, instead I wanted to stop before hand when I noticed I was going wide....so letting off the throttle made the bike stand up even more. I have been doing this, but much slower. Adding speed to this made me rush and that is what I explained in my first post. I am not jumping on the street from my endorsement class, so dont think you are trying to save me from traffic, I know my limits and I pushed them a bit to up my skill. I should have not done that. I, again, explained this in my first post, that I let my past experiences on bikes, give me a false sense of security to attempt this.

I did start in a parking lot and worked on my slow speed...however, I moved to quickly into me speeding through the corner and maybe picked the wrong corner (90 degree instead of flowing). Its cool, I understand there are risks and I accept those risks. I am not daily commuting or doing much more than a 1/4mile to the gas station to fill up. I am doing this in a closed off (most of the time, not many people in my neighborhood, so there is little to no traffic where I am practicing.) I am not a dare devil in any way, so please understand this is happening in a some what controlled environment. So I am not causing anyone else any issues while doing this on a city street.

I do understand you know what you are talking about and again, I appreciate the info you giving me, but could you maybe tone down the condescension a bit, that would be great.
 

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not condescension. frustration. you took the wrong takeaways from a mistake and are looking for supporting evidence. and this can confuse other new riders
almost like the guys who think they had to lay it down. or the guys who are afraid of the front brakes because youll go over the bars.
 

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I did start in a parking lot and worked on my slow speed...however, I moved to quickly into me speeding through the corner and maybe picked the wrong corner (90 degree instead of flowing).
you can work on road speed cornering in a parking lot as well. id estimate i'm hitting 40mph in the "Straights" on my range. the technique also doesnt really change from 15mph to 150mph. it just gets scarier, but physics stays the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
not condescension. frustration. you took the wrong takeaways from a mistake and are looking for supporting evidence. and this can confuse other new riders
almost like the guys who think they had to lay it down. or the guys who are afraid of the front brakes because youll go over the bars.
Ok then, the frustration is not helping either.....dont understand why you are frustrated...you seem more frustrated than I am and I am the one that laid the bike down. HAHAHA. I hope you just dont jump on a bike frustrated...to me that is the real demon....makes me want to release my anger on the bike.

I am not afraid to brake, I am not afraid that I will go over the bars...I braked when I noticed I was wide. I know I did not have to lay my bike down, however, in the learning process, I have accepted that it might happen. Not saying I am required in anyway, but I pushed my limits too quickly and I laid it down. Not going to dwell on that I did, I am going to to learn what I did and correct it.

I understand where I went wrong and what I am taking away, I am not looking for supporting evidence as much as showing what my thought process was and that was incorrect, no need to get frustrated. Teaching and helping does not work when you are frustrated.

Take a deep breath man, you're explaining it and its helping....thank you, no need to be frustrated, I got it wrong and I accept that and I would not share unless I wanted to learn what went wrong. I am not on the road causing other motorists any inconvenience when I am practicing...I promise I will not get in your way or cut you off on the street =)

If this is too frustrating to you, you don't have to do it. I will learn one way or another and I accept the risks for me pushing my limits.

Next thing you are going to tell me is you are a motorcycle instructor? ROFL.
 

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mostly cause these are avoidable mistakes with universally known "fixes". but somehow we keep having people clunk bikes because they missed something.
if you haven't seen twist of the wrist, this may help. specifically around 11 minutes when keith talks about survival reactions.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yea, I have watched this. Thanks for the info though man, trust me, I do appreciate it....very much. I really only hurt my pride on the drop too, so it was not bad at all. Bike can and will be repaired before I get back to it.
 

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getting back to the first point that started it all...
"absolutely disagree on #2 (to the point I suggest you remove it altogether out of your post cause it will confuse others). it's honestly dangerous advice to not use throttle "

that is the only thing I disputed. cause otherwise someone reading it will get the wrong idea.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
I am sorry, but I think I just realized my issue here. I can understand what you mean and let me rephrase. I think when I say throttle, I am meaning acceleration. I understand you meaning that the throttle, enough to keep your speed through the turn once you lean over.

OMG, now I understand hahaha.....if thats what you thought. I am so sorry, yes, I see the error here and I will correct this.....

Please forgive my terminology error.....again, if you meant it that way.
 

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yep. steady to slightly increasing. not hammering it. just enough to make sure the bike isn't decelerating and to get some weight transfer to the rear.

i would expect most people's instincts to prevent them from whacking it to wheelie levels mid corner (on a non-traction controlled bike)
 
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