[NOLABOB]

Hi folks,

Has anyone done a cam swap on their 3rd gen SVs? Reading the comments on one of Sam Wiest's camp swap videos, I saw he mentioned that the current best swap is third gen intake cams on intake and 2nd gen intake cams on exhaust. I'm assuming this would work for all SV engines, but I don't want to assume unless explicitly stated. Also, I am assuming this means 2nd gen front cylinder intake cams on front cylinder exhaust and 2nd gen rear cylinder intake cams on rear cylinder exhaust. Finally, do the markings get modified in the same way for third gen motors?

Any guidance on this would be much appreciated.

 

[Soulspinner]

I'm not sure what cams their referring to but at 2:30 they mention cams and its all Suzuki items?
I would also be interested to know if its the above setup, Sam Wiest's.

 

[NOLABOB]

I'm not sure what cams their referring to but at 2:30 they mention cams and its all Suzuki items?
I would also be interested to know if its the above setup, Sam Wiest's.

Yeah, James Holland is the man! I just wish I lived in Bristol so I could just ride up and let him work his magic on my bike. It seems Sam hasn't posted or logged in to the forum since last year, so I Facebooked messaged him in hopes he'll offer some guidance. If he does, I'll make sure to report back. I may also give it a shot and reach out to JHS racing to see what they recommend. Heck, I'm willing to pay them for the information

 

[mad8vskillz]

The best is gladius all around. Lwtracer.com had a chart of sizes

 

[NOLABOB]

The best is gladius all around. Lwtracer.com had a chart of sizes

Yep, he still has them up.

SV650 Camshaft Profiles – LWT RACER

I was also wondering whether the procedure for re-marking the timing marks was the same for 3rd gen motors as the one he followed in his video

 

[mad8vskillz]

unfortunately no clue since i have triple strong racing do my motors

 

[NOLABOB]

unfortunately no clue since i have triple strong racing do my motors

Nice!

 

[NOLABOB]

Alright, folks, this is what I have gathered so far. The timing marks on the 3rd gen cams seem to be the same as on the previous generations per the 3rd gen shop manual (see images below from the manual). Also, in the comments section of one of his videos, Sam Wiest notes that the best combination at the moment is 3rd gen intake cams on intake, 2nd gen intake cams on exhaust (see screen capture below).

The LWT Racer cam profiles list indicates the difference in lift between 3rd gen exhaust and 2nd gen intake is .4 mm

I also inquired with Zoran about springs and he said his 3rd gen springs for higher lift cams would not be necessary and also mentioned he had not tested the cam swap on 3rd gen motors.

So my questions are the moment are:

1) what could possibly go wrong if I put second gen intakes on my exhaust given I correctly follow the procedure for swapping the cams?
2) if I swap the cams and do a couple of revolutions of the crank, check clearances, do not hear or feel anything that should not be touching touching (like valves. hitting the cylinder), am I safe to start the motor without fear of things blowing up?
3) Given I have not heard from anyone who has actually tested the cam swap on a 3rd gen motor, what would testing involve? A before and after dyno run? Anything else?
5) Seeing as the cam profile difference between 3rd gen exhaust and 2nd gen intake is only .4 mm, will the hp gains even be worth it at this point?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated. I have looked around the boards and have not seen a definitive thread on 3rd gen cam swaps and I think It would be great to have all this info in one place.

Cheers!

 

[Stilo]

I understand that the Gladius cams are more aggressive and give about 7hp more. Ive got a spare complete top end for a Gladius if you are interested.

 

[NOLABOB]

I understand that the Gladius cams are more aggressive and give about 7hp more. Ive got a spare complete top end for a Gladius if you are interested.

I am definitely interested! Are they new or used? I'm assuming they're safe to install as the motors seem to be pretty similar all in all, but I know assumptions can also end in tragedy. Do you know for sure if the'll work on a 3rd gen motor without negative consequences?

Also, looking at the lift differences, the intake cam on the Gladius seems to be only .1 mm more than the intake on the 3rd gen and the exhaust on the Gladius is actually the same as the exhaust on the 3rd gen, while the 2nd gen intake is .4 more than both. So that leaves me wondering whether the 7hp increase of the Gladius cams is more the effect on 1st or 2nd gen motors but not necessarily on 3rd gens. I have also heard that you want more lift on the intake than exhaust, so that has me wondering whether the second gen intake on exhaust is a better way to go for third gen motors than the Gladius cams.

Then again, a Gladius intake on intake and a second gen intake on exhaust may also be an interesting way to go from just lift numbers alone (9.1 on the intake, 8.7 on exhaust). Given I am not an engineer or a qualified mechanic, that leaves me with the same queries, what can go wrong and what to look for when attempting the install?

 

[Stilo]

I contacted mad8vskillz who is a moderator on the site. He confirmed that they fit SVs, can I suggest you contact him for advice as he has lot more experience and knowledge than me
Thanks

 

[mad8vskillz]

im in this thread heh unfortunately i have no idea HOW, just that it does fit.

 

[NOLABOB]

I contacted mad8vskillz who is a moderator on the site. He confirmed that they fit SVs, can I suggest you contact him for advice as he has lot more experience and knowledge than me
Thanks

Thanks, Stilo. I think at the moment I'm leaning towards the 3rd gen intake on intake and 2nd gen intake on exhaust as that is what Sam Wiest recommended and he seems to have tried it (although not necessarily on a 3rd gen engine). If I give it a shot, I'll report back with results. I'm going to the tuner to get a base dyno the first weekend in December and will also have a dyno run for the full M4 exhaust to compare to the one M4 has on their website. Should be fun!

 

[Stilo]

im in this thread heh unfortunately i have no idea HOW, just that it does fit.

 

[Troy Jollimore]

It’s also not completely about total lift, but the duration (dwell?) and how early/late they open/close the valves along with how quickly they do so…

But you’re right. Dealing with a motor like this, the relatively small changes you’re making won‘t really amount to much. Though the changes are cumulative. I can’t remember if you mentioned it, but since you’re going pretty all-in with this, are you going to port and polish the head and valve bowl? Doubt there’s much material there for you to take down the valve stems to allow more air by… Combine that with a free-flowing intake and exhaust, and that’s about as good as you’ll get.

But unless you’re racing in a particular cc class that allows for those modifications, and are willing to live with some of your low end ‘grunt’ moved up higher in the rev range, I’d just get a bigger or different (600cc sport?) bike. Instant gratification for far less work and trouble. At least the SV mill isn’t like a cruiser motor. It seems quite happy to live at 10k RPMs.

 

[Kiwi Rider]

Thanks, Stilo. I think at the moment I'm leaning towards the 3rd gen intake on intake and 2nd gen intake on exhaust as that is what Sam Wiest recommended and he seems to have tried it (although not necessarily on a 3rd gen engine). If I give it a shot, I'll report back with results. I'm going to the tuner to get a base dyno the first weekend in December and will also have a dyno run for the full M4 exhaust to compare to the one M4 has on their website. Should be fun!

Following!

 

[Craig380]

Also following

I remember reading that the Gen 3 motors have slightly lower compression than the Gen 2 (11.2:1 vs 11.5:1 if I remember correctly) but I've no idea how that's achieved - could be different combustion chamber profile, different piston crown profile, or just a thinner head gasket. In any case, I'm not sure the reduction is particularly significant.

 

[NOLABOB]

It’s also not completely about total lift, but the duration (dwell?) and how early/late they open/close the valves along with how quickly they do so…

But you’re right. Dealing with a motor like this, the relatively small changes you’re making won‘t really amount to much. Though the changes are cumulative. I can’t remember if you mentioned it, but since you’re going pretty all-in with this, are you going to port and polish the head and valve bowl? Doubt there’s much material there for you to take down the valve stems to allow more air by… Combine that with a free-flowing intake and exhaust, and that’s about as good as you’ll get.

But unless you’re racing in a particular cc class that allows for those modifications, and are willing to live with some of your low end ‘grunt’ moved up higher in the rev range, I’d just get a bigger or different (600cc sport?) bike. Instant gratification for far less work and trouble. At least the SV mill isn’t like a cruiser motor. It seems quite happy to live at 10k RPMs.

All good points. What originally got me interested on the swap was that it seemed to be a relatively straight forward bolt on (just swapping out the cams, no other modifications to the motor), but considering that Suzuki's already been moving in the direction of higher lift and that there's not much publicly available info from reputable mechanics on the benefits of changing the 3rd gen cams and nothing else, I'm leaning towards just sticking to the exhaust system and dyno tune for now. I'm probably better off taking that money and spending it on a track day as improving as a rider will probably be more rewarding than getting 3 extra hps.

 

[Geo Smith]

I'm probably better off taking that money and spending it on a track day as improving as a rider will probably be more rewarding than getting 3 extra hps.

Fully agree. I recall a video Mad made of him chasing a stock SV on the track. He's an expert with a well-modified SV, but the stocker was giving him a run for his money.

 

[Troy Jollimore]

That answer all day. Though I could also make the argument for buying a ‘better’ bike for the same money as you’d even spend on weight reduction, and brake/suspension upgrades. But if the SV is your ride, it seems like a nice platform to start from. I would imagine if you’d come out of a hairpin a gear higher by mistake, the SV will dig you out a bit faster than a high-strung inline-4 without downshifting.

When I had the Shadow motor apart (it still is, don’t ask… 😉) my father asked me if I was going to do port work to it, like I had to my Eagle Talon sports car years back. There were some obvious gains to be made, but not much material separating the ports and the other parts of the head. Being a cruiser, I couldn’t see the power gains really being worth it. Plus, the Talon was forced induction, which is a lot more forgiving for things like shaping and volumetric increases/decreases. If you decide to go the Mad8V route of pure race bike later on, you can do all that, lighten the flywheel, look into those 2G pistons if that’s what brings the compression ratio back up… Or even all custom ($$$) stuff. Give yourself a few years, and maybe trying out some different bikes, before making that decision.