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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Tried searching the gazillion threads with bikes not starting... Nothing seemed relevant to my problem.

Was at a trackday with my sv650 and laid her down in a slow left corner.
Snapped the clutch lever and shifter.

Replaced those, and bike wouldn't start.
Bypassed the clutch lever and stand, still nothing.

Got her going by having a friend help me push start the bike, so that's how I got her started for the rest of the track day.

Today, while diagnosing the problem with the service manual, everything checked out until I tried bypassing the starter relay by shorting the two posts. I got massive sparks and arcing when I shorted the starter relay (as if I was shorting the battery directly). Seems as though my starter is grounding itself somewhere. Is this indicative of a bad starter?

Need help, I'm at my wits end.
 

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maybe the crash jarred the starter somehow. try removing it and checking for obvious damage, then put 12 volts to it and see if it spins and if the gear extends. (not more than a few seconds, don't want to burn it up.)
 

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Today, while diagnosing the problem with the service manual, everything checked out until I tried bypassing the starter relay by shorting the two posts. I got massive sparks and arcing when I shorted the starter relay (as if I was shorting the battery directly). Seems as though my starter is grounding itself somewhere. Is this indicative of a bad starter?
That is normal, to get big spark there.
 

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The gear on the starter motor does not extend as it does in a car with a starter solenoid. The gear meshes with an intermediate gear which meshes with the starter driven gear at the back of the rotor. There is a one way clutch used instead of the solenoid piggybacked onto the automotive starter motor throwing out the gear into the flywheel.
 

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The gear on the starter motor does not extend as it does in a car with a starter solenoid. The gear meshes with an intermediate gear which meshes with the starter driven gear at the back of the rotor. There is a one way clutch used instead of the solenoid piggybacked onto the automotive starter motor throwing out the gear into the flywheel.
thanks, i didn't know that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
That is normal, to get big spark there.
I kinda doubt that... Especially since one of the tests in the service manual is to try putting the starter wire onto the positive battery post. Doing so I get large sparks as though I were shorting the battery posts. It even left a little weld spot on the screw.

Using a multimeter I tested for continuity between the starter body and that wire and there is continuity... clearly a short.

The bike slid out at about 25mph in a slow curve. I don't understand how the starter motor was damaged.

I see there is a rubber gasket on the starter motor.
When removing the starter motor, do I need to drain the motor oil first?
 

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Maybe you should bring your bike to a shop. Electrical items are really hard to diagnose over the internet.

There will be sparks when you jump the solenoid. Put jumper cables on a battery and tap the opposite leads together (note, this isn't a great thing to do to your battery). There will be big sparks. Same concept happens when you jump the solenoid.

There is no oil in the starter. It's an electric system.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
There is no oil in the starter. It's an electric system.
Yes... I know there is no oil IN the starter...
I meant oil out of the engine casing since the starter gear may or may not be in oil since there is a gasket.

Not having ever taken apart a motorcycle engine, I wasn't sure.
 

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...I got massive sparks and arcing when I shorted the starter relay (as if I was shorting the battery directly). Seems as though my starter is grounding itself somewhere. Is this indicative of a bad starter.
As tovar said, it it normal to get massive sparks when jumping the starter relay. It is also close to impossible to damage the starter motor with a slow low side.


...Using a multimeter I tested for continuity between the starter body and that wire and there is continuity... clearly a short.
Also normal for the starter motor to look like a dead short circuit when measured with a standard ohm meter. Expected resistance is (12v/60amp) = 0.2 ohm. That value is too low to read unless you use a special milliohmmeter meter (expensive!).


Considering the clutch lever snapped off, I suspect the problem is related to the clutch interlock. I know you have already checked there, but all signs point to that being the problem... I would triple check the plug, the wires, and mechanical integrity of the switch.

If still no joy, then post again; a few simple tests can rule it in or out.

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks TeeRiver,

Since everyone said it was normal to have massive sparks when jumping the starter relay, I gave it a shot and found the starter motor works. I'm sorry for having cast doubt.

- I checked the clutch interlock once again.
- I checked the mechanical integrity of the switch, and validated there was continuity when the clutch lever is pressed, and none when I let go of the clutch lever.
- I checked the integrity of the wires from the clutch all the way down to the large yellow connector in front of the airbox. All looks normal and tests fine with a tester as above.

Still no dice.

I noticed one thing that is strange.
After reconnecting the battery, and trying to start the bike, the RPM gauge rotates to 7k RPM and holds there for a couple of seconds before coming back to 0.
The dash shows CHEC, however when checking for error codes using the diag connector it shows me E00, "No error".

I have ruled out the stand switch and the gear position sensor using the guidelines in the service manual.

I really don't know where to go from here. Please help.
 

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CHEC simply means the bike is not ready to start, like kill switch off or sidestand down with bike in gear.
 

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...
- I checked the clutch interlock once again.
- I checked the mechanical integrity of the switch, and validated there was continuity when the clutch lever is pressed, and none when I let go of the clutch lever.
- I checked the integrity of the wires from the clutch all the way down to the large yellow connector in front of the airbox. All looks normal and tests fine with a tester as above.

Still no dice.

I noticed one thing that is strange.
After reconnecting the battery, and trying to start the bike, the RPM gauge rotates to 7k RPM and holds there for a couple of seconds before coming back to 0.
The dash shows CHEC, however when checking for error codes using the diag connector it shows me E00, "No error".

I have ruled out the stand switch and the gear position sensor using the guidelines in the service manual.

I really don't know where to go from here. Please help.

You are doing all the right checks, Red-line. The starter circuit has a lot of switches but it is straight forward, so I am sure you can solve this problem.

You know the battery, terminals, cables and starter motor are OK because the starter cranks when jumping the starter relay lugs.

At this point, only two things can be wrong; either 1) the starter relay has failed (not likely to be damaged by a low side crash) or 2) 12v is not making it to energize the relay when the starter button is pressed.


I would start by checking the 12v relay energize signal. First, remove the clutch switch plug from the clutch perch switch. There should be two wires, both Black/Yellow.

1. With key OFF, measure resistance between Battery(-) and each of the B/Y wires. One wire should show close to zero ohms, the other should be a large resistance, maybe 30k ohms.

2. With key ON, measure voltage between Battery(-) and each B/Y wire. One wire should show about 9v, the other should be almost zero volts.

These 4 readings should give a clue as to what is wrong or where to look next.

As loco said, CHEC is normal if the kill switch is in the KILL position. Tach sweep up to 7k is also normal. This happens any time power has been disconnected from the gauge for more than a few minutes.

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I would start by checking the 12v relay energize signal. First, remove the clutch switch plug from the clutch perch switch. There should be two wires, both Yellow/Black.

1. With key OFF, measure resistance between Battery(-) and each of the B/Y wires. One wire should show close to zero ohms, the other should be a large resistance, maybe 30k ohms.

2. With key ON, measure voltage between Battery(-) and each B/Y wire. One wire should show about 9v, the other should be almost zero volts.

These 4 readings should give a clue as to what is wrong or where to look next.
TeeRiver,

First Let me preface this by saying thank you for your help, It is greatly appreciated. If anything I hope this thread ends up helping others as well.

I did the above tests, results are as follows:

1- Resistance test:
One wire showed close to zero ohms (0.02),
The wire other showed around 6.65 M ohms

2- Voltage test:
One wire showed close to zero volts (5.5mV)
The other wire showed around 10.25v

I am starting to think it may be the starter relay that has failed coincidentally.

Once again, thank you for your guidance.
 

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...I did the above tests, results are as follows:

1- Resistance test:
One wire showed close to zero ohms (0.02),
The wire other showed around 6.65 M ohms

2- Voltage test:
One wire showed close to zero volts (5.5mV)
The other wire showed around 10.25v

I am starting to think it may be the starter relay that has failed coincidentally.

Once again, thank you for your guidance.
That looks good, Red-L, and says the clutch switch wires are intact and making connections to where they need to go.

A couple more things you can try:
1. Since the above tests pass, it is pointing to the clutch switch as the problem (or the relay itself, but that would be a freak coincidence...). I know bypassing the clutch switch was one of the first things you tried, but just for kicks, try it again, maybe there was a bad connection the first time. A paperclip works well. Could also be that the the switch itself is fine, but not being mechanically actuated completely. Bypassing the switch eliminates it as the possible cause.

2. If that doesn't help, measure the voltage on the B/Y wire that showed 10.25v, but this time press the starter button when you do so; voltage should pop up from 10.25v up to 12v when the button is pressed; this verifies the starter button contacts, side-stand relay, and connecting wires.

3. Finally, you can test the starter relay itself by manually applying voltage through a jumper wire to energize it. To do so, a) clip one end of a jumper wire to Battery(+), b) clip the other end of the jumper wire to a pin or other sharp object, then c) push through the insulation on the Yellow/Green wire, directly at the starter relay. Do this with the clutch switch bypassed with a paperclip, and be sure the bike is in neutral or it may end up in your lap!

Here is the starter circuit from the SV manual for reference. Highlighted Yellow is the path we are tracing. The problem MUST be on the yellow line somewhere since jumping the starter relay makes the engine crank. The problem CAN'T be the battery, main fuse, ignition switch, side-stand relay, or kill switch, since the bike runs when you push start it.

Edit: There is actually an error in the above Service Manual schematic. The ECM connection goes to B/Y, NOT O/W.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
1. Since the above tests pass, it is pointing to the clutch switch as the problem (or the relay itself, but that would be a freak coincidence...). I know bypassing the clutch switch was one of the first things you tried, but just for kicks, try it again, maybe there was a bad connection the first time. A paperclip works well. Could also be that the the switch itself is fine, but not being mechanically actuated completely. Bypassing the switch eliminates it as the possible cause.
Tried again... no dice.


2. If that doesn't help, measure the voltage on the B/Y wire that showed 10.25v, but this time press the starter button when you do so; voltage should pop up from 10.25v up to 12v when the button is pressed; this verifies the starter button contacts, side-stand relay, and connecting wires.
This test failed. Voltage did not go up to 12v. It stayed constant at 10.25v.


3. Finally, you can test the starter relay itself by manually applying voltage through a jumper wire to energize it. To do so, a) clip one end of a jumper wire to Battery(+), b) clip the other end of the jumper wire to a pin or other sharp object, then c) push through the insulation on the Yellow/Green wire, directly at the starter relay. Do this with the clutch switch bypassed with a paperclip, and be sure the bike is in neutral or it may end up in your lap!
This test was successful.
I did this test twice. Once with a jumper on the clutch switch, and once with the clutch switch plugged in. Both times the bike started.
Does this signify that the starter relay is at fault?

So since test 2 failed, that leaves us with the starter button contacts, side-stand relay, and connecting wires... Making progress... :)
Looking at the schematics and the service manual, the side-stand relay is also the turn-signal relay... right?

Once again, I appreciate your help and follow-up!
Many thanks!
 

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2. ...measure the voltage on the B/Y wire that showed 10.25v, but this time press the starter button when you do so; voltage should pop up from 10.25v up to 12v when the button is pressed; this verifies the starter button contacts, side-stand relay, and connecting wires.

This test failed. Voltage did not go up to 12v. It stayed constant at 10.25v.
This means power is not coming from the starter button. Time to open up the RH handle bar switch and take a look inside. Check for 12v on the O/W going to the button, and verify 12v appears on Y/G when the button is pressed, something is wrong there.

The starter relay itself is fine, manually jumping 12v to Y/G with good result proves that.

Getting close, Red-L, and tracing electric over the internet is not always easy, you are doing a great job!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks TeeRiver,

I'm leaving on a motorcycle trip with my other bike for the week-end... I'll check this out and let you know upon my return.

Cheers,
-Vince
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
This means power is not coming from the starter button. Time to open up the RH handle bar switch and take a look inside. Check for 12v on the O/W going to the button, and verify 12v appears on Y/G when the button is pressed, something is wrong there.
TeeRiver,
Problem is solved.

:worship:

I opened up the RH handle bar switch and disassembled the guts. Upon doing so a large piece of gravel fell out. I suspect it was binding somehow against the starter button because I immediately tested it and the bike started. I feel somewhat stupid being that the issue was so simple, but alas.

You have definitely taught me a few things. I can't thank you enough.

I hope this thread is as useful to others as it has been to me.

Cheers,
 

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good deal.

lesson learned for us all- first do a visual check for foriegn objects.
 
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