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Old 10-09-2019, 02:12 PM   #1
RIDER675
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Clutch questions

Still having issues with my clutch dragging too early in the lever travel and wanted some info to diagnose it. Since the original thread ive replaced every part of the clutch from what rides on the main shaft up to the lever.

How early in the lever travel should it be possible to set the engagement? I can only just disengage the clutch enough with the clutch screw preloading the rod, which makes the clutch pull way too hard.

Is it normal for the point where the adjustment mechanism touches the rod to change between startups? For instance if I follow clutch mantra and start the bike, sometimes the adjustment screw is no longer 1/4 turn from touching the rod. Especially the first few times I adjust it after disassembling the clutch. Something is causing the rod position to vary which plays havoc with the clutch adjustment sometimes.

Noticed today that the clutch pushrod spins when the clutch lever is pulled in, is this normal?

I often hear gears grinding going from neutral to first even when up to temp, since replacing the clutch stack (second stack ive tried) there's also a crunch coming from the left side, along with the normal clunk/lurch. The grinding indicates clutch drag, but what could be causing a crunching noise?

Last edited by RIDER675; 10-09-2019 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:22 PM   #2
RecoilRob
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Re: Clutch questions

There should be a roller bearing in the clutch hat that should spin rather than spinning the pushrod. Perhaps it's seized? If the pushrod is spinning it's going to be wearing both ends which WILL play hell with the adjustment.

The clutch effort shouldn't really change with pushrod adjustment...unless the screw mechanism arm isn't at 90 degrees to the cable pulling it. Fully compressing the springs to fully release the clutch (which it sounds like you're not getting with the crunching during gear engagement) at least far enough so it releases will take whatever effort the springs take to compress. Has someone perhaps put in heavier springs? Do you have another set of stock springs handy to try?

If the springs are super strong, the effort to compress might be able to overcome the roller bearing in the hat (if it's not seized). If springs are stock then the effort to compress them is what it is. The only way to lighten it is to make sure the mechanical advantage the clutch cable has on the lever it pulls is at 90 degrees. But for sure the pushrod shouldn't be spinning....so check the hat.
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:25 AM   #3
RIDER675
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Re: Clutch questions

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Originally Posted by RecoilRob View Post
There should be a roller bearing in the clutch hat that should spin rather than spinning the pushrod. Perhaps it's seized? If the pushrod is spinning it's going to be wearing both ends which WILL play hell with the adjustment.
Ive swapped the bearing a couple times but didn't check if the rod was turning. No change in clutch effort or engagement from that.

One of the 6 times I had it back together but before starting, the clutch effort was very light but felt like the pressure plate/springs moving and not just the return spring. Less than 1/2 the effort. With clutch screw touching the rod, I can only pull the lever 8 times before my 2 fingers had enough. 1/4 out makes it tolerable but far from other bikes ive ridden.

Ive swapped everything riding on the output shaft pretty much individually, also the hat. There was 1-2mm earlier disengagement at lever from the gen1 basket and frictions. Pull effort wasn't effected. Both pushrods are the same length as my gen1 sv.

My other sv disengages earlier, so it doesn't seem like im simply asking too much of the system to work with 2 fingers. The pull effort idk about because after clipon conversion the cable routing is horrible, have a twf cable to install.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:26 AM   #4
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Re: Clutch questions

Cable routing is pretty important....so you might go after that being that too sharp a bend can feel OK without load but then bind and drag when loaded. The lever being used can also change the effort needed....do both of your bikes have the same levers?

There IS a reason that many manufacturers have gone to assist type clutches....lighter pull effort. Hydraulic clutches don't have the cable routing issues and are self-adjusting...perhaps if you can't get the cables routed well enough a swap to hydraulic might be helpful?

Regarding the 'two finger' clutch....that does seem to be asking a lot considering that your travel is reduced greatly not using the whole hand. I have CRG shorties and can pull the lever with two fingers...but even with hydraulic actuation the lever hits my other fingers and won't disengage cleanly only pulled that far. It does disengage to a fashion, but I normally use all 4 fingers so on the move if you only use 2 it might be OK being that clutchless shifting is possible and some disengagement is better than none, but at a stop you might need to depress the lever to the bar to get enough travel depending on how 'sticky' the plates are acting.

A smoother/harder plate will act disengaged with less clearance though holding power might be reduced. This shouldn't be an issue with the 650 which seems to have plenty of clutch for the power involved. I know you've swapped clutches and whatnot so the first place to go would be the cable routing IMHO. Then maybe just use 4 fingers at a stop and 2 on the go?
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:46 AM   #5
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Re: Clutch questions

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Originally Posted by RecoilRob View Post
Cable routing is pretty important....so you might go after that being that too sharp a bend can feel OK without load but then bind and drag when loaded. The lever being used can also change the effort needed....do both of your bikes have the same levers?
All stock levers, switched to TWF clutch cable without bends. Not sure if levers would help, might be able to reduce few mm of free play?

It's a track bike with quickshifter, upshift is no problem just missing downshifts when I didn't used to and running off track. The rev matches get sloppy from hand fatigue too.

Clutch adjustment screw had the wandering problem always. The engagement got worse over time but not much. Been using 4 fingers at a stop to find neutral etc. Sounds like its almost normal, without gloves it works with 2 fingers but rough especially warm. Tried 3 clutch fiber/plate stacks, the ones that were more worn had more drag, only the worst of which causes the crunching.

Good info thanks!
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:41 PM   #6
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Re: Clutch questions

Swapped everything again from the gen1, noticed a clunk from the clutch springs the first time I pulled the lever in and once again the clutch was nice and light before startup. It gets a little harder after startup and then a lot harder at temp. The clutch push rod still spins with the lever in. These components drag less and don't spin the rear wheel on the stand in neutral like the gen2 parts, and allow just enough disengagement. Problem is how hard the lever gets makes it almost unusable when at operating temp.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:29 PM   #7
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Re: Clutch questions

How did you route cable?
Is your mechanism smooth, no balls missing in there?
The piece pushing against pressure plate with bearing has washer between bearing and plate, is washer there?
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:25 AM   #8
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Re: Clutch questions

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Originally Posted by tovar View Post
How did you route cable?
Is your mechanism smooth, no balls missing in there?
The piece pushing against pressure plate with bearing has washer between bearing and plate, is washer there?
Cable goes straight after entering the hole in the frame, left side of the metal throttle cable bracket, under the throttle bodies, arc left.

I swapped to a new clutch adjustment mechanism its like butter.

Washer is between pressure plate and bearing.

Measured all the rods are matching length, less torque on the basket, flipped the washer between the hub. Doesn't even clunk into 1st when warm with these parts.

Strange that the push rod hat can spin even though the bearing is ok.
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Old 10-16-2019, 12:59 AM   #9
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Re: Clutch questions

Is cable entering frame hole on right side of steering head?
Rod will spin sometime when lever is pulled.
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Old 10-16-2019, 01:13 AM   #10
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Re: Clutch questions

Your 2nd gen clutch most like had worn out washer between outer and inner hub. This makes hubs spin together and rear wheel spin. And makes clunking noice and hard to find neutral.
Your 1st gen clutch may have same issue but not as bad.
You can take friction and steel plates out and spin inner hub by hand. If not easy to spin you need new washer between hubs.
If that checks good it has to be cable/mechanism. Make sure you adjust it correct. Disconnect cable from mechanism and adjust it with at least 1/4 turn free play. Then attach cable and adjust free play in cable itself.
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