Finally, Turbo project underway

naturalextraction · Oct 10, 2012

As usual life's responsibilities get in the way of the fun stuff sometimes. Back when I started the idea, I was only able to achieve a few things on the project as it got placed on the back burner. You can read about it here: http://www.svrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132948&highlight=turbo+sv&page=6

As to be expected concerns were about the crank. At the time I removed the stator from another SV engine I had, indexed it out on the mill then removed material and balanced it. I decided for my initial pressure limits of 6 or 7 psi, 3 of it bringing it up to sea level densities, that was a good place to start.

My 2002 SV managed to get run over by a truck and trailer recently while I was purchasing metal at a shop and decided since I will be repairing it all, that now was as good a time as any to just get it done.

I'll get into more details as I go along and am planning on getting it on the road within the next two weeks. I think the subject has been beat to death on the forums here about pressurizing the cylinders of these bikes, but my nature is to experiment and give it a try. I designed a small, light weight dyno for shifter Karts and motorcycles that I will get to use this on as well. I just finished that up recently and will make comparisons from other dynos for accuracy.

Also...someone remind me how to post a picture from my files other than a url. It's been awhile since I've posted anything on here

In the mean time here is the SV a few weeks before getting hit and my other turbo multi-fuel prototype bike (toward the end of the film) you can watch: https://vimeo.com/49393554

Mikey B · Oct 10, 2012

i love watching your riding video. really relaxing, does a good job showing the joy of riding

and sucks to hear about the sv getting run over :/

good luck on your project!

RecoilRob · Oct 10, 2012

I suspect the crank failure problem is more from excessive rpm's than the amount of power being produced. Of course, NA HP is mostly derived from increasing the rpm's as the torque is hard to improve upon...so the 85-90 HP grenade limit for NA is spinning the living whee out of them.

Small increases in rpm's create mucho additional stress on the internals. A turbo could make that same power at a much lower speed which would be kinder on things.

Seeing all the failures on the rotor end of the crank sure looks like a harmonic problem accentuated by the stresses of rapid rpm changes with the heavy flywheel. Instantly changing revs 4-6000 like people do when speed shifting or hooliganizing would put some massive torque loads on that point that seems to want to shear. Lighter rotor certainly a step in the right direction, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a harmonic damper? It's funny, but there are some aircraft engines that will break themselves at very moderate rpm's if you hold them at that critical speed. It is shaking and that shake will get bad enough to make things fail...so you push through that speed as quickly as you can and never, ever run right on it. Then they last just fine.

The V-twin isn't the best platform to turbo...as Honda found out. Your results won't be spectacular and less than most other engines can manage. Keeping the turbo spinning under boost will be the challenge with the long time span between exhaust pulses. You'll likely have to run a pretty restrictive housing to get the speeds up...which will limit the top end. Or, you can make decent top end with massive lag and nothing down low. I prefer the strong midrange torque type setup even though we give up some ultimate top end.

naturalextraction · Oct 11, 2012

Thanks Mikey B for the compliment on the film, they're fun to produce!

RecoilRob... Yes, I'm going for more low end grunt and mid range torque. HP isn't what I want or need for this bike. I've modified turbos in a few ways mostly different shafts with impeller from stock often needing to change the center housing. In this case it's an IHI Rhb5 16249A.

Yes a bit large typically in terms of A/R of Compressor housing and even Turbine. However I have an insert in the turbine side for creating more laminar flow earlier and .035 over all reduction in ID from the .47 A/R turbine side. The combination provides and earlier spool up without much noticeable restriction which would only be noticeable at High RPM. I'm limiting boost pressure to 7psig anyway, far within it's efficiency mapping. Harmonic distortion is a consideration and always will be. Agree to push through it or reducing at all possible is why I'm trying to reduce weight of rotating mass. On the other engine I will be able to make larger changes there, but on this one the stator was recommended. I also drive at elevations between 5400 and 8000 ft. Serious lack of density specially when it's hot. It takes a minimum of 3 pounds just to feel what you guys do at sea level. It can get real anemic up here. So I'll try 7 for now and figure 10 might be acceptable but wont do that for awhile.

So spectacular HP no, significantly improved bottom end grunt and mid-range, yes. If I can get it to feel, pull as well as the TLS I drive in my video, I'll be happy. I'll dyno it of course and account for as many variables as I can. Thanks!

mid40s · Oct 27, 2012

All I remember from reading this was the static white noise I heard in my head--- you guys are just too smart for me...

RecoilRob · Oct 12, 2012

Altitude is a beotch.

But, having a turbo can make it work for you! I used to have an XR4TI that ran 18 psi and absolutely LOVED it around Denver when I passed through on a trip. Not so high that it couldn't make its' waste-gate limited pressure (critical altitude) but the air resistance was so much lower it really was faster than down at sea level where it lived.

Turbo's are a fantastic device....but getting one to work well is SO much easier on an engine with more than two cylinders.

But...you do sound like you've got it well thought out...so please keep us entertained with your building and testing.

naturalextraction · Oct 14, 2012

Here is a link to a couple pictures.
http://www.svrider.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=663&pictureid=2220
http://www.svrider.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=663&pictureid=2221

RecoilRob · Oct 14, 2012

You're not expecting any problems using the CV's in a blow-through? I know the slides should open with the differential pressures being created, but aren't they going to be slow to open? Maybe it's just an inherent dislike of CV's, but I'd personally want some normal mechanically controlled carbs on there to make it easier to tune.

There were some neat things we could do with vacuum secondary Holly's back in the day with turbo's. One was using boost to blow open the back barrels which were set really fat. The linkage would then close them against the boost pressure. It seemed a good way to get the enrichment needed under boost without the self-regulating nature of vacuum operation. In your experience do the CV's work OK?

naturalextraction · Oct 15, 2012

Usually, providing pressure on both sides of the pod gets it open quickly and accurately. Pretty much like you were doing with the Holly. I'm assuming you were pressurizing that big secondary vacuum pod most Holly's came with? Utilizing at least 10mm ID works best in my experience. Accuracy in the Pitot Pipe hole sizing is also important. I'll drop down one jet size as well.

Personally I would prefer this all be an injected system. I'm also using some ideas from my prototype bike I show in the film. It runs on different fuels, primarily Diesel and Gasoline. One GSXR 600 Injector with the same fuel pressure and fuel map run all four cylinders, it too utilizes a turbo system. But it is a patent pain I'm still working on. I've only submitted one on the cold start system for it. I'm hoping the SV will get a little better mileage with a few other modifications to the fuel and intake system. I would usually try to keep A/F ratios at 15:1 with the injected system or leaner as I do on the proto bike, but wont on the SV although will try to keep it no richer than 13:1. We'll see.

It's getting into a bit of work. The intake took 4 hours total in itself. Machined the pitot tube which took way to long. A little frustrating...was hoping to have it at least running today.

BirchyBoy · Oct 15, 2012

You're going to need one heck of a long slider on the right side. Looking good!

RecoilRob · Oct 15, 2012

Personally I would prefer this all be an injected system.

I am with you there, my brother!

Having had carbs, mechanical FI and electronic FI with turbo's there is NO comparison. Making the carbs work...especially when pushing the power output was a Royal Pain. Rejetting all the time as the temperature and weather changed. The mechanical FI was a lot better, but no comparison to electronic. To be able to plug in the computer, click a mouse around a bit and make all the changes you want. Ahhhh!

Perhaps Micro-Squirt or similar would be the way to go?

naturalextraction · Oct 16, 2012

RecoilRob, Yes, in fact the proto bike has a micro squirt system slightly modified to work with some other circuitry but waaaaayy easier to tune with way more control! But what the heck, I'll try this and see how it goes. Here is a short video on the protobike build that shows the heavy spaghetti needed: https://vimeo.com/26947432

I talked with Greg Spears today and decided I'd buy a couple goodies from him...the star shifter and Clutch springs for now. If I don't feel comfortable in my balancing the stator I may order his. He's been helpful with what and how he's modified these engines since I'm not that familiar with the internals yet.

Birchyboy, yea haven't quite figured out what to put on that side for a slider or may modify one to extend! It won't need to go out that far actually It's not as stickin out there as it seems. I have a couple and they fall about an inch short of being useful!

Exhausted · Oct 24, 2012

How is this project going? have you considered a roots type or possibly power-plus super charger? The power-plus is known for being used in smaller-ish engines (was popular in the mg midget) and may lend itself to a small enough design to be able to fit in the small sv engine area better.

f3racer · Oct 24, 2012

http://www.procharger.com/motorcycle.shtml

i know its harley but i wonder if it would work.

Exhausted · Oct 25, 2012

omg thats sexy, and tiny. wow, impressive, it seems to be one of the only superchargers they're still making. alot of the info i pulled on those old ones i reccomend are not being made anymore...or are too large to retro to our application

User · Oct 25, 2012

subscribed.

naturalextraction · Oct 25, 2012

Hi Guys, I went with turbo cause I have a few. Also I like the efficiency of using exhaust gasses, wasted energy, to make the conversion. The Supercharger is cool looking though!

I was a little disappointed in the scavenging pump I ordered that supposedly was designed for motorcycle turbos, ha! It's a monstrosity. Very heavy and large. I'll build my own using, as they did, Milidon pump gears. But I wanted to get this dude running so I managed to get it on the bike although cant wait to replace it already.

Also I'm having to repair the damage it got from being ran over. I'm repainting the whole damn thing and decided to re-use the lower fairings as I really like them. They were a lot of work to get back in shape and cut the left side one to fit around the turbo, hopefully neatly.

I still need to finish a few things like adding the fuel pump and the intake is still a mess and needs a little bit more configuration. I'll wire in the "pump" tonight. More wet sanding and painting to do. Once I get it all up and running I'll work on some detail stuff.

Exhausted · Oct 25, 2012

looks great. thanks for the update

naturalextraction · Oct 27, 2012

Just another update photo with a resivoir and now a closed loop oiling system for the turbo. Will refine it later. Seems to work well so far. Will actually run it tomorrow on a quick test drive.

RecoilRob · Oct 29, 2012

naturalextraction said:
Just another update photo with a resivoir and now a closed loop oiling system for the turbo. Will refine it later. Seems to work well so far. Will actually run it tomorrow on a quick test drive.

So, the scavenge system you mentioned before was shelved? The closed-loop oiling has me wondering as the reservoir isn't clearly visible...or is very tiny. How much oil does it hold? Are you concerned about the temperatures it will see?

The turbos I've played with always used the engines oil pump (sometimes beefed up for the added flow) and then gravity drained to the pan. Simple and nearly fool-proof. Not sure I'd be thrilled having an electric pump keeping my turbo alive.

They absolutely can be durable, just this is more to go wrong and I've been bitten by Mr. Murphy before. Is the turbo drain too low to gravity drain to the sump? If it was close, an add-on sump/drain on the front where the oil cooler was might serve both purposes.

Just wondering aloud and I'm sure you have thought of these things and came to the conclusions and decisions you have made for your own reasons. On the builds we've done, going to extraordinary lengths to achieve simplicity seems counter intuitive but is a good way to go for long term durability. Enjoying your thread so far.

naturalextraction · Oct 30, 2012

Yes, more "stuff" the more to go wrong! I've never compressed a twin before so the drain was a problem. The scavenging doesn't do as well with the twin due to the crank case pulses being so strong. The pump will create vacumme, not much, on the drain having little pressure from the pump to the inlet for oiling for the center housing. So volume of oil is higher yet with less pressure. This to avoid it pressurizing beyond the sealing rings to the turbine and compressor side. These are just the typical butt type and clip rings. A good volume will be plenty for oiling.

I wanted to utilize a closed loop design as the wet clutch system in our SV's can throw off many and heavier particulates that can cause real restrictions to shaft bearing of the center housing. This helps to assure good clean oil and keeps temperatures of the turbo oil out of the engine. (Subaru went through an issue of "contaminated" engine oil creating pre-mature turbo failier in the late 90's but just used a filter/screen prior to the inlet) As to heat, it is exposed to ambient and the reservoir is also more of a heat sink and should help dissipate heat to ambient due to length of travel, flow rate and surface area exposure. Placement of the reservoir is also a bit of a concern. I did make it a bit smaller than I intended and may change that. Also I will place a J or K type thermal to check temperature, will do that actually tomorrow. That way I can actually see how it's cooling and at what rate under what operating temperatures and conditions. Hope to avoid Coking completely of course regardless of how hard I run the SV. Since I've not done it this way before, I will want some validation...or not, to these basic ideas related to the closed oil circuit.

Again,,, we'll see soon enough. I've been spending more time wet sanding and painting...sucks actually. It will look good though. Did get the fuel system mostly on tonight.. Will have some time tomorrow for a start up!

Re-read your comment RecoilRob and forgot two things: it holds just over a pint. Also drilled and tapped 1/8pipe where the oil cooler goes now and thought I would try that out of curiosity... way to much pressure to allow draining from the turbo. May use it to put an engine oil cooler now though since I've tapped it.

Bryceknez · Oct 30, 2012

Ghetto subbed. Natural, this thing is a true monster to behold. Can't wait to watch the progress.

naturalextraction · Nov 5, 2012

Just thought I'd upload a couple more pictures. Finished the fuel system plumbing and most wiring. Have the waste gate pod set up to work off solenoid but have to wire it in and get it set right. Will paint the lower fairings tomorrow. Also made a exhaust tip today as well. Will look decent against the Blue I'll be using. Haven't decided if I'm going to get all that fancy with the paint but to keep it all one solid color. That's my thoughts for now anyway. Runs now also but haven't driven it on the road yet as I'll need to finish the electrical additions.

naturalextraction · Nov 8, 2012

Just another quick update. Finished all the fuel system and have already redone wiring twice and made some adjustments. The pitot tube doesn't seem to work the way it should and not sure why yet. I ended up making a bypass valve for venting carb fuel bowls, closing off under pressure and open to ambient when not pressurized. Works but shouldn't have needed it by previous utilization. Until I can investigate it further, I think it has more to do with the 720 cycle and pulses. I think...

naturalextraction · Nov 22, 2012

Quick update: I have it running now. I had some configuration problems with the turbo pump and have it working and not leaking. Still have some painting to finish on it as well. I ran it for over 20 min and watched the turbo oil temp which only reached 171. I'm sure under heavier loads it will get hotter. But I'm happy with it so far.
I still have some problems with pulses within the plenum and realized that I have to change the angle of the intake tube from the compressor housing. I had to make two check valve/ one ways for the carb vents and the two lines to the Pitot tube. That seems to be working ok. Hopefully I'll get the painting done this week and it'll be ready to start dialing in.

fivetoez · Nov 22, 2012

Keep us updated.....this is such a cool mod.

naturalextraction · Nov 26, 2012

Finally got in a decent test drive. First, God I love Torque!;D Such a hoot to drive. Very linear power and transitions from vac to boost is wonderfully smooth. I have to say I'm kinda surprised it drives, powers up as well as it does. I was surprised to get good boost in first gear as well. Again, my first ever blow through with carbs. As RecoilRob and I have mentioned, we're EFI fans all the way. I already miss plugging in the laptop to tune, however so far it looks like I dialed it in pretty damn close on the AF ratio right up. I'll get some real testing done soon. Had to work on crash damage now that I have it running and will paint the tank and some other pieces tomorrow and Tuesday. Also will be modding that damn seat too. It had a bit of a leak at the gauge connection as I forgot to tighten so I didn't get a good reading off the boost gauge so I didn't list what I was getting here. I'll drive it again later tomorrow. So far so good. Have everything stock so far. Took out and lightened the stator from the other motor and will get that on after the painting.
I'm already super pleased with the torque gain. I'll dyno it within a couple weeks once I get some road time and feel I have it really dialed in well. I have taken a bunch of video as I've built it and will have a video of everything within the next up and coming weeks.

fivetoez · Nov 26, 2012

That ^ Photo gives me WOOD!!

Finally, Turbo project underway

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